[Bobboau]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4247436.stm

just in time for two supreem judge confirmations!

[phreak]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=pledge

[Bobboau]

do you agree with the assessment of that page?

[Ford Prefect]

I'd almost be sad to see the pledge phased out. All the little iconoclasts like me grew up fighting with our teachers about not doing the pledge. Those budding noncomformists need something to wag their middle fingers at, and the pledge was the perfect thing.

[Bobboau]

now now, the whole thing isn't getting throughen out here, it's just two words that were added in during the 1940s

[redmenace]

Is it me or has this same guy that filed the lawsuit been judge shopping?

[Bobboau]

more like client shopping, his origonal case was throen out because he didn't have custaty of the kid he was fileing on behalf of, this time he is fileing on behalf of a bunch of parents who do have custaty of there kids

[Anaz]

Originally posted by Bobboau
now now, the whole thing isn't getting throughen out here, it's just two words that were added in during the 1940s

Yes. To differentiate us from the godless pinko commie bastards. A part of history we surely want to preserve

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I'd almost be sad to see the pledge phased out. All the little iconoclasts like me grew up fighting with our teachers about not doing the pledge. Those budding noncomformists need something to wag their middle fingers at, and the pledge was the perfect thing.

Ach, you can always replace it with the 2 minutes hate.

[mikhael]

Whilst I don't think the whole "under God" thing belongs in the Pledge (given that God is rather a specific reference AND the minister who originally wrote the pledge DIDN'T PUT IT IN THERE), I don't know that it should be expunged.

Those two syllables make the whole thing scan just a touch better.

As for the idea of the Pledge being phased out: I bloody well hope not. One of the things I love about the USA is that we do not pledge our allegiance to the President or the government at large. We pledge our allegiance to the flag, and more importantly, to the Republic as a whole. The nation, not whichever lackwit we let into office this year.

[WMCoolmon]

I feel like the pledge really isn't that big of a thing.

I was doing it all through school, so to me it really wasn't a pledge - we started doing it before I understood what it really meant. It was just this thing we'd say.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
I was doing it all through school, so to me it really wasn't a pledge - we started doing it before I understood what it really meant. It was just this thing we'd say.

Start them when they're young. Blind subservience to the State!

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by mikhael
As for the idea of the Pledge being phased out: I bloody well hope not. One of the things I love about the USA is that we do not pledge our allegiance to the President or the government at large. We pledge our allegiance to the flag, and more importantly, to the Republic as a whole. The nation, not whichever lackwit we let into office this year.

To the flag? Doesn't that sound like idol worship to you? If our society is really confident in its ability to withstand the test of time and the natural corrosion of all political systems, why do we need to reinforce it with loyalty oaths? Ritual, to me, reeks of false certainty. It is easy to call yourself right if you believe that all you have to do is pledge your loyalty to some system of symbols.

[aldo_14]

I never needed a pledge to love my country - Scotland*.


*read into that what you will

[mikhael]

Who said anything about needing the pledge to love your country?

The Pledge amounts to a loyalty oath, yes. However, its an oath to a concept (the Republic, meaning the United States of America), rather than a concrete group of people who may or may not be competent. This works for me. I've sworn my loyalty to exactly three things in my life: the Republic, the Constitution of the United States, and my wife. I have backed up all three with actions as well as deeds.

False ritual my ass.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, "false ritual" is reduntant to me. It strikes me as simply a way of trying to distinguish ourselves relative to others, to categorize where there are no categories, and I have little patience for that tendency.

The entire concept of loyalty unsettles me because it is unconditional. I can muster no undying devotion to something as arbitrary and dynamic as a country. Just because the United States happens to be free and prosperous does not mean it embodies these things. I will contribute as a member of its society, but I have no love for it.

[Goober5000]

The Pledge shouldn't even exist in the first place.  The country should pledge allegiance to you, not the other way around.  This country was founded on the concept that government should be the servant of the people.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael
Who said anything about needing the pledge to love your country?

The Pledge amounts to a loyalty oath, yes. However, its an oath to a concept (the Republic, meaning the United States of America), rather than a concrete group of people who may or may not be competent. This works for me. I've sworn my loyalty to exactly three things in my life: the Republic, the Constitution of the United States, and my wife. I have backed up all three with actions as well as deeds.

False ritual my ass.

Loyalty is worth nothing if it's without reason; pride, love for your country, whatever name you wish to use, simply saying a set of words will not make people be loyal, unless they mean it inside.  And if it's compulsary, then it's not an affirmation of loyalty, but simply a reading of words.

 I would be that whether or not you said the pledge or not has no affect on your patriotism / loyalty, etc, any more than saying the vows at marriage would have made you more faithful & honest.

That's why i don't believe in (compulsary) pledges; either they're a lie, or they're re-affirmations of something a person already does or feels.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Goober5000
The Pledge shouldn't even exist in the first place.  The country should pledge allegiance to you, not the other way around.  This country was founded on the concept that government should be the servant of the people.

I disagree. The pledge is NOT to the government. Its to the Republic (note the capital R), which is the country, regardless of the government. And who is the country if not the citizenry?

Originally posted by aldo_14


Loyalty is worth nothing if it's without reason; pride, love for your country, whatever name you wish to use, simply saying a set of words will not make people be loyal, unless they mean it inside.  And if it's compulsary, then it's not an affirmation of loyalty, but simply a reading of words.

 I would be that whether or not you said the pledge or not has no affect on your patriotism / loyalty, etc, any more than saying the vows at marriage would have made you more faithful & honest.

That's why i don't believe in (compulsary) pledges; either they're a lie, or they're re-affirmations of something a person already does or feels.

Its not compulsory. I grew up in military run school systems (being an army brat), and we never HAD to say the pledge. We could--and several did--sit it out.

I think you have it backwards though. The Pledge (and my vows to my wife and my vow to support and defend the Constitution) were given because I already believe the things contained therein. The act is an affirmation of the belief, it does not create the belief. If I didn't already believe in these things strongly, I wouldn't have said the vows, see.

Hell, if they HAD to be said, if they were mandatory, they'd be meaningless.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by mikhael
I disagree. The pledge is NOT to the government. Its to the Republic (note the capital R), which is the country, regardless of the government. And who is the country if not the citizenry?

Well, to be pedantic, it's "to the flag... and to the Republic for which it stands".  The emphasis in both clauses is the flag (yes, the Republic is mentioned, but only in context of what the flag stands for).  Pledging loyalty to a symbol is (to use a crude analogy) akin to bowing to an idol or kissing an image of a king.  Pledging loyalty to the Constitution or to the people of the US would be better.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but the way the pledge is worded it strikes me as pledging loyalty to the government, not the citizenry.

Incidentally, the Pledge of Allegiance seems to be the only context in which the USA is referred to as a republic that remains in modern usage.