Ok, I just read the Shivan Manifesto thread (well, actually just the recent updates and bumpage to it) and got a few thoughts running.
Rather than mill on them, I went on the net again and did another search for Aken Bosch, this time finding a vastly more detailed article on his life and what-not. And then I read through it. The similarities are
startling to say the least.
I was going to post this large reply to the thread when my connection went out. Goober then locked the thread (darn you!) so I couldnt post there, so instead, I will post here.
So many theories...so much speculation.
And yet, there is but one probability.
The Shivans were part of a much larger problem, Volition said...
The key here, I believe....is not
race... nor
species but
problem...From Dictionary.com:
prob·lem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prblm)
n.
A question to be considered, solved, or answered: math problems; the problem of how to arrange transportation.
A situation, matter, or person that presents perplexity or difficulty: was having problems breathing; considered the main problem to be his boss. See Usage Note at dilemma.
Problem
n
1: a state of difficulty that needs to be resolved;
2: a source of difficulty;
3: a question raised for consideration or solution
The question here should not be who the shivans are...or why they do what they do...or even whom they work for (if applicable). But, rather what is the nature of the larger problem at play against humanity?
There is a hidden hint here....one within the way the Vasudans have thrived, and how humanity was still struggling comparitively. Then comes the Bosch enigma.
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/art/articles/1999_00_bosch.htmlThis is a very interesting article on Bosch's nature and paintings of the time. Pay close attention to the details of the time in particular:
"Bosch lived during unsettled and anxious times. The old medieval order imposed by the Church was cracking under the growth of cities, the power and commerce of capitalism, the rise of national states, demands for religious reform and the beginnings of science. Minds were growing curious, analytical and adventurous. Historians point to this time as the beginning of the modern world.
The age was marked by violence and pessimism. Kings and dukes were murdered, soldiers pillaged and killed, cruelty to the poor and the animals were prevalent. The future seemed dim with visions of demons, darkness and hell. Opposing the current times, Bosch portrayed his message with a visual impact so fierce, it chilled his contemporaries and fascinates us five hundred years later. "
Bosch mentioned in his monologues, in his logs, the feelings he ahd of the Vasudans (especially the 4th log)...thing is there are correlations to some of hte monos and his paintings.
An example of this could be Mono 3 - the Iceni...which has some similarity to 'our' Bosch's "A ship of fools". However, it is more matching of Bosch's abandonment of the Iceni, and all of it's crew. A ship of fools and cattle that had followed him around blindly, worrying only about revenge and their hatred of the Vasudans....
"In The Ship of Fools, we see that all of humankind is sailing through the seas on a ship that is representative of humanity. Everyone represented here is a fool in Bosch’s eyes; people that eat, drink, flirt, cheat and pursue unattainable objects. Meanwhile the ship drifts aimlessly and never reaches the harbor. The sinister and monstrous things that he brought forth are our hidden forms of self-love, and the ugliness from within."
But hte overall theme one gets from 'our' Bosch could be summarized by the article:
"In an analysis done about forty years ago, the Dutch scholar Dirk Bax concluded that Bosch was a moralist with contempt for the lower classes. He had no sympathy for the poor and used bitter symbolism to satirize beggars, monks, nuns, soldiers, peasants, pilgrims, whores, gypsies, vagrants and jesters. He occasionally lashed out an emperors and nobles as well, but rarely against burghers like himself and others of the wealthy middle class. He vented his anger the most on the excess of lust, license, drunkenness, gluttony, folly and stupidity. Some art historians have since interpreted Bosch’s paintings as displaying less pessimism and more understanding of the difficult plight of his fellow human beings. "
A rather starkling parralel (or at least, a similarity in course) to the Bosch in Freespace 2.
What does this bode for the Shivans, however? Or indeed...how is it even related? The religious undertones that govern the existance of Bosch, indicates that the Shivans could indeed be governed by such undertones as well. From the article, the time at the period was potrayed as one of much darkness and strife, with the shadow of demons on the horizon. This could easily have been the description of the time in Fs1 when we started out - with the shadows of the Shivans in Ross128.
The main difference between real history and our paradigm here, however, is in events. In real history, this period of strife made way to capitalism, economy and the modern era.
In freespace, however, the Volition team appear to have taken a different tangent. This may be the main difference - could the so called 'demons' have appeared in the form of the Shivans? This could be equally possible in either FS1 or FS2. Judging from the trend, there is a more than likely chance that FS3 would have even more significant religious undertones and currents driving it along - the only question is
which religion's?
In FS1, the Shivans were potrayed mostly from Eastern Hindu mythology. One thing about hindu mythology - it has hte largest number of dietys around, which probably allowed the devs from flexibility in naming conventions, so its probably not very in-depth than one may think...FS2 however, saw the naming conventions change to that of Demons in general.
Taking into account this fact, and that of Bosch...could the Shivans in essence, represent the inner demons that we fight everyday? Or perhaps, teh guardians or vassals of a representative hell itself?So many theories...so much speculation.
And yet, there is but one probability.
The Shivans were part of a much larger problem, Volition said...
The key here, I believe....is not
race... nor
species but
problem...From Dictionary.com:
prob·lem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prblm)
n.
A question to be considered, solved, or answered: math problems; the problem of how to arrange transportation.
A situation, matter, or person that presents perplexity or difficulty: was having problems breathing; considered the main problem to be his boss. See Usage Note at dilemma.
Problem
n
1: a state of difficulty that needs to be resolved;
2: a source of difficulty;
3: a question raised for consideration or solution
The question here should not be who the shivans are...or why they do what they do...or even whom they work for (if applicable). But, rather what is the nature of the larger problem at play against humanity?
There is a hidden hint here....one within the way the Vasudans have thrived, and how humanity was still struggling comparitively. Then comes the Bosch enigma.
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/art/articles/1999_00_bosch.htmlThis is a very interesting article on Bosch's nature and paintings of the time. Pay close attention to the details of the time in particular:
"Bosch lived during unsettled and anxious times. The old medieval order imposed by the Church was cracking under the growth of cities, the power and commerce of capitalism, the rise of national states, demands for religious reform and the beginnings of science. Minds were growing curious, analytical and adventurous. Historians point to this time as the beginning of the modern world.
The age was marked by violence and pessimism. Kings and dukes were murdered, soldiers pillaged and killed, cruelty to the poor and the animals were prevalent. The future seemed dim with visions of demons, darkness and hell. Opposing the current times, Bosch portrayed his message with a visual impact so fierce, it chilled his contemporaries and fascinates us five hundred years later. "
Bosch mentioned in his monologues, in his logs, the feelings he ahd of the Vasudans (especially the 4th log)...thing is there are correlations to some of hte monos and his paintings.
An example of this could be Mono 3 - the Iceni...which has some similarity to 'our' Bosch's "A ship of fools". However, it is more matching of Bosch's abandonment of the Iceni, and all of it's crew. A ship of fools and cattle that had followed him around blindly, worrying only about revenge and their hatred of the Vasudans....
"In The Ship of Fools, we see that all of humankind is sailing through the seas on a ship that is representative of humanity. Everyone represented here is a fool in Bosch’s eyes; people that eat, drink, flirt, cheat and pursue unattainable objects. Meanwhile the ship drifts aimlessly and never reaches the harbor. The sinister and monstrous things that he brought forth are our hidden forms of self-love, and the ugliness from within."
But hte overall theme one gets from 'our' Bosch could be summarized by the article:
"In an analysis done about forty years ago, the Dutch scholar Dirk Bax concluded that Bosch was a moralist with contempt for the lower classes. He had no sympathy for the poor and used bitter symbolism to satirize beggars, monks, nuns, soldiers, peasants, pilgrims, whores, gypsies, vagrants and jesters. He occasionally lashed out an emperors and nobles as well, but rarely against burghers like himself and others of the wealthy middle class. He vented his anger the most on the excess of lust, license, drunkenness, gluttony, folly and stupidity. Some art historians have since interpreted Bosch’s paintings as displaying less pessimism and more understanding of the difficult plight of his fellow human beings. "
A rather starkling parralel (or at least, a similarity in course) to the Bosch in Freespace 2.
What does this bode for the Shivans, however? Or indeed...how is it even related? The religious undertones that govern the existance of Bosch, indicates that the Shivans could indeed be governed by such undertones as well. From the article, the time at the period was potrayed as one of much darkness and strife, with the shadow of demons on the horizon. This could easily have been the description of the time in Fs1 when we started out - with the shadows of the Shivans in Ross128.
The main difference between real history and our paradigm here, however, is in events. In real history, this period of strife made way to capitalism, economy and the modern era.
In freespace, however, the Volition team appear to have taken a different tangent. This may be the main difference - could the so called 'demons' have appeared in the form of the Shivans? This could be equally possible in either FS1 or FS2. Judging from the trend, there is a more than likely chance that FS3 would have even more significant religious undertones and currents driving it along - the only question is
which religion's?
In FS1, the Shivans were potrayed mostly from Eastern Hindu mythology. One thing about hindu mythology - it has hte largest number of dietys around, which probably allowed the devs from flexibility in naming conventions, so its probably not very in-depth than one may think...FS2 however, saw the naming conventions change to that of Demons in general.
Taking into account this fact, and that of Bosch...could the Shivans in essence, represent the inner demons that we fight everyday? Or perhaps, teh guardians or vassals of a representative hell itself?