Poll

Destroyer battles too short?

No. One shot - one kill is the way to go!
3 (12.5%)
Yeah..a bit..
3 (12.5%)
Excellent the way they are
6 (25%)
they should last as long as corvette fights
9 (37.5%)
Slow-mo! Give me time to influence the battle!
3 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: October 06, 2005, 04:01:37 pm

Author Topic: Battles too short?  (Read 4398 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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I was playing Freespace 1 again some time ago and I recall one of the best misions there - Clash of the Titans.

There is somethig really neat about capships duking it out while you're flying all over the place. That sadi, in FS2 the feel is completely different.

Capship battles are over in a single salvo or two - and that's a big problem when naming capship missions as it leaves the player too little time to react.
And when I say capship I mean the big guns - destroyer.

When you pit two corvettes against eachother, or two cruiser, you get a battle of respectable length. but when you do hte same with with 2 destroyer - UGH.

so what's hte problem there? For one - the hull.
An Aeouls has 45000 hull, while a Orion has 100000. Now look at the size difference. Something screwy? I'll say it is - a destroyer should have at least twice as many HP.
teh second problem is the weapons - their power varies greatly.

Trying to actually balance  all ship clases might be a very difficult endaveour, but I want to try it.....
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Offline CP5670

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It depends on the mission, but I generally find corvette fights to last the optimal amount of time. I always script destroyer battles manually so that recharge times between beam salvos are much longer. This basically solves the problem.

Changing the destroyer strengths is also a good idea, but only on a per-mission basis. If your objective is to blow up a destroyer with Cyclops bombs, the existing strengths work well, so dramatically changing the global values isn't a good idea.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 04:25:58 pm by 296 »

 

Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
It depends on the mission, but I generally find corvette fights to last the optimal amount of time. I always script destroyer battles manually so that recharge times between beam salvos are much longer. This basically solves the problem.

Changing the destroy strengths is also a good idea, but I only do that on a per-mission basis. If your objective is to blow up a destroyer with Cyclops bombs, the existing strengths work well, so dramatically changing the global values isn't a good idea.


Manual scripting FTW.  The entire point of a SEXP-driven mission is to allow a huge scripting potential, so for those times when "beam-free-all by default" makes the battle too short it's a pretty good indication that the mission isn't designed well.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline CP5670

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I don't think I've ever used beam-free-all for destroyers actually, except in goofy test missions. Repeating fire-beams is the way to go. Although at the moment this doesn't work too well due to the repeat count bug.

 

Offline TrashMan

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That's a way around the problem but doesn't solve the problem itself.. the ship class imbalance.

Increasing destroyer HP is really no problem for the player...Helios warhead anyone?

I'll have to throw together a table that will show the HP of ship with the damage they can do per minute (total and on a single target) and work from there...
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Offline CP5670

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The Helios is something of a special weapon; it's supposed to be reserved for only the super critical missions, stuff like Bearbaiting, because of its production costs. Most missions should not be using it at all.

As for the beam table, Zylonbane made something like that years ago, back in the VBB days, but I have no idea if it's still available now.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 05:23:07 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Galemp

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Manual scripting FTW.  


Sorry to hijack the thread, I've seen you use FTW before. What does it mean?
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Offline Nuclear1

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I'll really don't see why redoing the entire capital ship section of the table is absolutely necessary. Even a competent FREDer can make a decent capital ship duel last long enough with good SEXP work, as CP said. Big capital ship duels that are even the least bit important can be made to last for a while to show a stalemate between forces, or be quick to show an obvious superiority of one side over another.

The fire-beam SEXP was made for a reason. In a few of my missions, I find that regulating fire-beams between capital ships can balance out a mission well. Also, it's not as if equals have to be fighting: you can easily set a Sobek to beam-free-all and set its waypoints around a destroyer while using fire-beam to adjust the destroyer's fire against the corvette.

Just take a look at any one of V's big beam fests: King's Gambit, Sicilian Defense, and Endgame are the best examples of how a well-balanced battle sequence can go about being made. King's Gambit is designed to be a fast mission involving destroying large ships within a short period of time, and therefore the rapid-fire, powerful Mjolnir cannons, coupled with the Typhon's BVas cannons, are designed to deliver heavy damage in a short amount of time.

Sicilian Defense, works in somewhat a similar fashion, though in not as rapid or desperate a scenario. Instead of being pressed for time as much as King's Gambit, Sicilian Defense uses a single corvette and bombers to attack the NTF fleet. While it may seem slightly unbalanced at points, it can easily be fixed with player intervention--destroying the Vindicator's portside beam cannons before the Hyksos arrives can prevent an early destruction of the corvette, for example. The rest of the mission involves a corvette and a weakening force of bombers attacking smaller capital ships--a corvette, then a couple of cruisers.

Finally, Endgame is one of the best-balanced and well-orchestrated missions I've ever played. Almost the entire mission is based around intercepting fighters and bombers while the larger capital ships duke it out. With swarms of fighters all around, the player almost seems to never notice how quickly the NTC Loyola gets torn up by the Monitor, for example. The battle can also be quickened, thanks to the ability to command the allied capital ships in the mission. The Fortune can aid in the destruction of the Loyola and the Danton, and, while its beam is not too powerful, it fires rapidly enough to be a factor.

If you want to look at a drawn-out capital ship battle that is involving, fun, and long-lasting, I would suggest playing Derelict--specifically the mission "The Stars Are Right". That whole mission is an excellent example of how a battle with several capital ships in a mission can be drawn out and still entertaining for the player. The same goes for the Derelict finale.
Spoiler:
The way in which the Khefrem in the final mission attacks the Nyarlathotep uses up enough time for the Cypher to get out of range of the Shivans. Two BVas turrets attacking the million point HP Nyarlathotep, with a single LRed returning fire on the less-durable Hatshepsut balances out the damage just enough that the Khefrem does appreciable damage and lasts long enough before being annihiliated by the Shivans.


Competent FREDing can more than make up for issues of a battle being too quick or too short. I still suggest this than to completely reorganizing the tables, which, honestly, can be a pain on FREDers, especially if they're not regularly updated with the new information. I speak from experience, too--GTI Rebellion has gone through dozens of table changes, and, as a result, many missions are currently going through rebalancing to match the final set of tables.

A little SEXP headache now is a whole lot less painful than a table headache later.

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Sorry to hijack the thread, I've seen you use FTW before. What does it mean?


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« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 05:40:40 pm by 673 »
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Offline FireCrack

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For The Win

It comes from celebrity squares or somthing, when a player was picking his last awnser to win he would say that, not quite sure of that though....
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline IceFire

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Personally....

Mission designers always have control on how long the battle lasts.  Yes capitalship battles go much quicker (if you let them) in FS2 and that was largely regarded as a good thing.  The greatest disappointment I had in FS1 was that capital ship battles were pretty mundane at best.

The most fun you could have was a GTC Fenris against an PVC Aten...they both went down pretty quickly and they had some good bits of firepower coming from each of them.  But as soon as you introduce shields and the like...they are pretty wussy.

FreeSpace 2 ups the ante on all counts.  Destroyers absolutely pummel other capital ships and can defend themselves adequately from fighters and bombers on their own with no other defense.  But the really great battles are with the destroyers duking it out while fighters and bombers fly in between them battling for the win.

As a mission designer...you have ultimate authority to create a realistic and fun situation.  You can script the beams as much as you want...and you should script it to some extent if you want it to carry out a certain way.
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Offline BlackDove

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No there isn't anything wrong with canon. Stop trying to change it. Please.

 

Offline CP5670

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Well, I wouldn't say there is nothing wrong with the defaults. There are a few obvious bugs: the strengths of two of the Hecate's turrets are switched around, the Mentu needs to have an SVas or two given the tech description, the Rahu should be designated SG Rahu rather than SSG Rahu, and some other things. Several ships could also use wider firing arcs. This particular issue with the battle lengths doesn't warrant changing anything though, at least not in ships.tbl.

 

Offline TrashMan

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But Nuk,e all those solutions, while they make he mission work, are basicly cheats and anyone who plays the game knows it. The player KNOWS a ravana can tear a Hecate apart. When the opposite happens you nkow something is wron - you know it's beams aren't fireing as fast as tehy should.

It just makes the whole ting look fake - and that kills immersion for me.

FS1 never had problems with BOE mission becouse of this - you really needed no coordinating and manipulting ship battles to the second, as tehy allways were a close match and lasted long enough for players to affect things...
ture, the ship there were pathetic and I played with modified tables (wiht big plasma guns for all sides),  and those battles I enjoyed more then any other...
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Offline Hudson

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Quote
Originally posted by FireCrack
For The Win

It comes from celebrity squares or somthing, when a player was picking his last awnser to win he would say that, not quite sure of that though....


Offtopic

For the Win is a planetside thing I believe, Everyone who plays planetside know what ftw is or ftL.  Hell theres even an outfit named FTW :P

Srry for hijack

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
But Nuk,e all those solutions, while they make he mission work, are basicly cheats and anyone who plays the game knows it. The player KNOWS a ravana can tear a Hecate apart. When the opposite happens you nkow something is wron - you know it's beams aren't fireing as fast as tehy should.

It just makes the whole ting look fake - and that kills immersion for me.

FS1 never had problems with BOE mission becouse of this - you really needed no coordinating and manipulting ship battles to the second, as tehy allways were a close match and lasted long enough for players to affect things...
ture, the ship there were pathetic and I played with modified tables (wiht big plasma guns for all sides),  and those battles I enjoyed more then any other...


Not if you do it right. Who says that a Ravana and a Hecate have to go mano-a-mano, charging at each other with beams firing? Let's just assume that you can make a Freespace ship commander have an ounce of brain and actually do something to affect the battle--such as maneuvering out of the Ravana's firing arc or possibly destroying the beam cannons before they have a chance to do any significant damage. This also adds some goals and immersion for the player--that the player can disarm the enemy capital ship before it tears apart his own fleet, or can destroy the enemy warship.

Honestly, what's more realistic? A 500,000-HP Orion barely getting scratched by a capital-ship-killing Deimos's forward beams, or having the Orion nail the Deimos in the bow before it gets torn up by the forward slashers? Just because FS2 ships hardly use any strategy when they're set loose on their own doesn't mean that the FREDer can't make a reasonly-intelligent battle. Frankly, I see adjusting the ship HP just because an unscripted beam cannon fight is over too quickly is just a way to get out of challenging FREDing. It destroys the good feeling that a FREDer can get once he looks at an exciting capital ship duel and realizes that he made it all happen.
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Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
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Offline IceFire

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Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Well, I wouldn't say there is nothing wrong with the defaults. There are a few obvious bugs: the strengths of two of the Hecate's turrets are switched around, the Mentu needs to have an SVas or two given the tech description, the Rahu should be designated SG Rahu rather than SSG Rahu, and some other things. Several ships could also use wider firing arcs. This particular issue with the battle lengths doesn't warrant changing anything though, at least not in ships.tbl.

Which turrets on the Hecate?
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Offline CP5670

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It's actually three of them, turret02, turret03 and turret06. The strength values are obviously wrong if you look at the positions of these turrets and compare their strengths to what the others have. The stronger 1.875 values are supposed to be for the big cannons on the top while all the other turrets should be 0.625. You must have noticed how the Hecate's rearmost big flak cannon is much weaker than the other three, which is because of this.

 

Offline Roanoke

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
That's a way around the problem but doesn't solve the problem itself.. the ship class imbalance.

Increasing destroyer HP is really no problem for the player...Helios warhead anyone?



I tried to make a mission a little harder by giving Shivans Helios instead of the equivilant cyclops but it was actually easier because of the Helios being much slower & easier to shoot down.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1
Honestly, what's more realistic? A 500,000-HP Orion barely getting scratched by a capital-ship-killing Deimos's forward beams, or having the Orion nail the Deimos in the bow before it gets torn up by the forward slashers? Just because FS2 ships hardly use any strategy when they're set loose on their own doesn't mean that the FREDer can't make a reasonly-intelligent battle. Frankly, I see adjusting the ship HP just because an unscripted beam cannon fight is over too quickly is just a way to get out of challenging FREDing. It destroys the good feeling that a FREDer can get once he looks at an exciting capital ship duel and realizes that he made it all happen.


Escape from challenging FREDing? Hardly.. Every tried UNNEEDED FREDing? It should be there.
Giving them a few waypoint to simulate inteligence (since tehy AREN'T inteligent) is one thing, but scripting every beamshot is another. The fact that you have to do that to have an interesting battle shows just how unrealistic (unbalanced) battels are..

The fact reamins that ship classes are inherently unbalanced and you have to use scripting to dance around the issue.
Now, for Chapter 1 I'm not going to do any experimenting as I have a lot of big battles allready done and re-balancing it all would just be a pain...but for Chapter 3 I wil have a go at a complete weapons/ship re-balance.

Quote
Well, I wouldn't say there is nothing wrong with the defaults

Aeolus 45000, Orion 100000.. Nothing rong there? oooookaaay...
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Offline StratComm

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You're free to do whatever you want in your campaign, just don't expect anyone else to use it.  And if you're just doing it for your own gratification, there's no point in arguing it ad nasuiam.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM