[Charismatic]

>) Already working on getting more friends.

[Styxx]

Anyone who kills him- or herself didn't deserve to live in the first place.
Anyone who tries to kill him- or herself but doesn't manage to do it shows gross incompetence and shouldn't be allowed to live any longer.
Anyone who cries over a suicidal gimp and then tries to kill him- or herself is on the exact same boat.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but I have no sympathies for suicidals. Want to kill yourself? Go right ahead. Just don't stain my carpet.

[aldo_14]

A friend of mine had his sister commit suicide after bullying which, despite knowing both them, I had no idea about.   And another mate who was hospitalised for depression after going to uni in Edinburgh.

So I have a lot of sympathy for people in that state of mind, because it's one which someone in our (generally speaking) circumstances can't fairly analyse unless we're psychologists.  It's simply idiotic to suggest otherwise, that a serious mental illness (which is what causes suicide in pretty much all cases, except perhaps crippling terminal injury) can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.

 Failed suicide attempts are often intended to fail, the desperate acts of a mind breaking down and attempting to reach out for help and attention.   Attempting to reach out to people - family, friends, or just strangers - who otherwise would be happy to walk away, heads down, away from someones misery.  We've probably all done it, walked away from someone who needs help in some literal or metaphysical manner, because we're scared of what it shows us about human nature and vulnerability.

The sort of attitude that abandons people in need of help, just because the illness is mental and not physical, is a stain upon humanity.  Those that would espouse it, I think should be ashamed.

[Styxx]

A friend of mine had his sister commit suicide after bullying which, despite knowing both them, I had no idea about. And another mate who was hospitalised for depression after going to uni in Edinburgh.

So I have a lot of sympathy for people in that state of mind, because it's one which someone in our (generally speaking) circumstances can't fairly analyse unless we're psychologists. It's simply idiotic to suggest otherwise, that a serious mental illness (which is what causes suicide in pretty much all cases, except perhaps crippling terminal injury) can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.

 Failed suicide attempts are often intended to fail, the desperate acts of a mind breaking down and attempting to reach out for help and attention. Attempting to reach out to people - family, friends, or just strangers - who otherwise would be happy to walk away, heads down, away from someones misery. We've probably all done it, walked away from someone who needs help in some literal or metaphysical manner, because we're scared of what it shows us about human nature and vulnerability.

The sort of attitude that abandons people in need of help, just because the illness is mental and not physical, is a stain upon humanity. Those that would espouse it, I think should be ashamed.

Cry me a river.

If you need help, go seek help, not try to kill yourself. If you think that killing yourself is the only way out, it probably is, and you should rid the rest of humanity of the burden of putting up with your whiny self.

[aldo_14]

It's simply idiotic to suggest that a serious mental illness can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.

[Styxx]

It's simply idiotic to suggest that a serious mental illness can be treated by saying 'cheer up you miserable sod'.

That's your opinion.

Psychology boils down to saying that with different words, and psychiatry boils down to saying that with addictive drugs. It's mostly handwaving with little significative provable results unless it involves heavy-duty psychotropics, which turns a person who wanted to kill herself into a drug addict who wants to live. Honestly, I wouldn't be able to decide which was worse, wasn't it for the fact that dead people don't have a way to bother me.

[aldo_14]

Where's your psychology and psychiatry degree from then, that you know so much to so easily dismiss?

[BlackDove]

While I am inclined to agree with Styxx, it's not that easily clean cut. Yeah, many cases warrant that kind of thought, but not all.

Generalisation is the mother of stupidity, no matter which form it takes..

[kode]

hah, this is funny. Styxx is trolling you mother****ers...

[achtung]

The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.

Otherwise......

You're a pussy.

Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them.  The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless.  IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state.  If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.

[aldo_14]

The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.

Otherwise......

You're a pussy.

Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless. IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state. If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.

The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm

A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/campaigns/cminds/depression.htm
http://www.nelmh.org/page_view.asp?c=3&did=1675&fc=001008001
http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=235213

I am dismayed to note the attitude being displayed is somewhat similar to that which equated shell shock as being cowardice in WW1, or that regarded any number of psyschological disorders like schizophrenia as 'female hysteria' in the 19th century. 

I would be very surprised (and dismayed) if anyone saying something as simple-minded as this sort of sentiment has had even the merest bit of contact with someone - anyone - who has suffered from said illness.   It's a cowards attitude, based on stereotyping and blind assumption, and designed to dismiss rather than risk having to have the slightest bit of basic understanding or simple human compassion.

[achtung]

The only way I could understand suicide is if you were diagnosed with some terminal illness that would include a very slow painful death.

Otherwise......

You're a pussy.

Your the only one that can bring yourself out of a depressed state, and pills only hide your problems and don't fix them. The only way to get yourself out of a depressed state is to go out and do something you enjoy and eventually you realise that being depressed is kinda pointless. IMO thats the only way to truely get somone out of a depressed state. If that doesn't work then your just an attention whore.

The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm

I totally disagree with you.  Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well).  Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer.  You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it.  If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something.  After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.

At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication. 

[aldo_14]

I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.

At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication.

You can also ask any psychologist and they'll tell you the 'you're a pussy' / 'attention whore' type statement is complete bull**** that only further depresses the patient and encourages them to avoid seeking treatment or recognising the illness.  A harmful statement, one that can cause great distress.  And if seen as a societal attitude, is incredibly dangerous.

That it is a serious illness requiring long term regulated care, whether that involves using medication or not.  That it's not easy, or simple to recover from.  It takes months or years.  That it's causes may be genetic, or neurological as well as environmental.  That no-one chooses to become clinically depressed, or place themselves in a situation (that's as stupid and unfair as saying throat cancer is the patients fault, if the patient is an average non-smoking individual). 

Oh, and medication may be required in the event of neurochemical issues.  Like serotonin uptake inhibitors.

It's easy, granted to blame a clinical depression upon the person being to blame, or weakminded, or a 'pussy'; it allows a person to deny the possibility of themselves suffering from that illness, to insulate themselves from it.  Especially easy as the patient is particularly vulnerable, and it's a mental illness.

I wonder, do you know anyone who's been clinically depressed?

[Mr. Vega]

I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.

At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication.

You say this because you do not understand the deeper stages of depression. Yes, a person's willpower is all-important when coping, but true depression is a result of an deep emotional conflict within the mind. Simply waving willpower about blindly won't do jack, though it can keep you alive.

Though actually Aldo, I kinda agree with him on suicide. When I was depressed (still am, really) I did think about suicide, but then my condition worsened. And I realized I had no intention whatsoever of suicide. Thinking about suicide is very different from considering it. The former is quite common among depressed people, the latter (at least in my experience) is done only by the truly desperate. Suicide attempts with intent to die are quite rare compared to cries for help.

[aldo_14]

I totally disagree with you. Cancer is something that you have no control over, Depression is something you bring upon yourself or is brought upon you through a stressful situation (which in turn you bring depression on yourself as well). Either way you have much more control over depression than cancer. You can ask any experienced psychologist and they will tell you that the person that has depression has to choose to get themeselves out of it. If you choose not to take medication they will tell you to go out and focus on something. After you feel good for a while you don't want to return to your depressed state.

At least that's what I did when I said I wasn't going to use medication.

You say this because you do not understand the deeper stages of depression. Yes, a person's willpower is all-important when coping, but true depression is a result of an deep emotional conflict within the mind. Simply waving willpower about blindly won't do jack, though it can keep you alive.

Though actually Aldo, I kinda agree with him on suicide. When I was depressed (still am, really) I did think about suicide, but then my condition worsened. And I realized I had no intention whatsoever of suicide. Thinking about suicide is very different from considering it. The former is quite common among depressed people, the latter (at least in my experience) is done only by the truly desperate. Suicide attempts with intent to die are quite rare compared to cries for help.

That's sort of what I mean, actually, and I said it in my first post.  IIRC a lot of people about to commit suicide are dissuaded simply by reminding them they will be dying; the phrase 'kill yourself' (as in why do you want to) often acts to shock the person into realising what they are about to do and the full consequences.  But even suicide as a cry for help can result in death, which is why I think it's incredibly inhumane to dismiss the victim as 'not worth being alive'.  IIRC about 90% of attempted sucides are by people with some form of mental illness (a mood disorder in about 60% of cases; depression being the most common; http://www.afsp.org/about/jmann825.htm), and it'd be incredibly naive and daft to assume they are somehow in a rational mind of what they are actually doing. 

For example, I mentioned a girl who OD-ed on painkillers; from what I understand it's quite often (in the context of suicide) people do this in the subconscious expectation of discovery.  Similar with people who slit their wrists, stand on tall buildings or hang themselves; all these actions have some degree of 'warning time'.  There's a story of a woman who survived a jump from the top of a hospital building; she described walking through 2 buildings in the hospital wearing only a gown, "hoping someone would see me out of all those windows; the whole building is made of glass”.

[an0n]

I agree wholeheartedly with Styxx - except for the parts where he's dangerously close to espousing Scientological beliefs. I hate them ****ers.

Oh and anyone suffering from depression is a whiney little pussy. It's not even a real condition. It's just an excuse for people to ***** about how horrible their life is.

The only reason it even became a diagnosed condition was because no Doctor could bring themselves to write a Valium prescription into your medical records with the diagnosis: "V. Sad - Cries ".

Depression is just the unhappiness of whiney, self-indulgent *****es.

[achtung]

I wonder, do you know anyone who's been clinically depressed?

Yes, my father back in '95-'97 plus years before my birth (early 80's), and I have been having trouble lately myself.  Iv'e actually been to the doctor several times and I know how it feels.  You feel like there's no way out, you kinda just wanna lay down and die on the spot.  I had constant fears that I had Brain Tumors and Multiple Sclorosis attempting to explain away the way I felt.  I actually had thoughts of suicide, but I always thought of at least some small reason to live.  My dad having experienced Severe Depression along with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) knew what to do.  He used the "get up and snap out of it!" method and it does work.  Along with that the fact that knowing the way I felt wasn't unique helped as well.  I still don't feel all that great but I don't feel as bad as I did.  Just calming people and telling them "everything's gonna be alright" just doesn't cut it, because that's what turns people into "attention whores" and "pussies".   Because it basically spoils them.  You shouldn't ball the depressed person out nor should you be extremely nice.  You should just act normal as it establishes that nothing major is wrong.  Because if your flat out an ass to them that does make them more depressed (as you said), but if your too nice they get used to that and they can't function in the real world anymore.

I know quite a few people that they've stuck on those damned anti-depressants and they just aren't the same people anymore.  I can understand prescription drug use on a moderate scale for a short period on people who have severe depression.  But only if they've gotten so deep into depression that they need something to get them rational enough to communicate with.  After that they just need to get the **** up and do something otherwise they'll just sit there and have time to think about what's wrong with them, or think about whatever it is that's making them depressed.

Oh and in all seriousness I do apologize for the use of the word "pussy".  That was a bit childish.

[kode]

no. it was invented by the music industry to sell emo music.

[Styxx]

The concept that a person can just pull themselves out of clinical depression is as sensible as the concept someone can just heal themselves of cancer.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm

A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood. It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/campaigns/cminds/depression.htm
http://www.nelmh.org/page_view.asp?c=3&did=1675&fc=001008001
http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=235213

I am dismayed to note the attitude being displayed is somewhat similar to that which equated shell shock as being cowardice in WW1, or that regarded any number of psyschological disorders like schizophrenia as 'female hysteria' in the 19th century.

I would be very surprised (and dismayed) if anyone saying something as simple-minded as this sort of sentiment has had even the merest bit of contact with someone - anyone - who has suffered from said illness. It's a cowards attitude, based on stereotyping and blind assumption, and designed to dismiss rather than risk having to have the slightest bit of basic understanding or simple human compassion.

Still, a person has to want to be cured of cancer to go through surgeries, get chemo and radiotherapy. And I know enough psychologists and psychiatrists to know that their whole profession is, at most times, a sham. Several of those I know even admit it openly - they're like fortune tellers. They tell people what they want to hear, or give them a little happy pill and suddenly they're all better.  And I know several people who have been "clinically depressed", and all of them were whiny little attention whores before being "depressed", and continued to be whiny little attention whores after their "depression" was gone.

And also, who's talking about compassion here? I don't need compassion from a physician when I'm sick, I need him to do the damned job for which I'm paying him. Compassion has absolutely nothing to do with getting better from any kind of injury or illness.

I agree wholeheartedly with Styxx - except for the parts where he's dangerously close to espousing Scientological beliefs. I hate them ****ers.

Don't know jack about Scientology, apart from it being utterly stupid in general. What parts of my argument come close to it?

[WMCoolmon]

Well, Styxx, you might be right...maybe everyone who kills themself is just thinking, "If nobody pays attention to me, then death is better than how my life is going, because I'm too lazy to make it better."

However, the response of "Okay, here's a knife," just doesn't sit well with me.