[The Avenger]

Kazan: (10:24 PM) lemme *******  read this
Avenger: (10:25 PM) ok
Kazan: (10:25 PM) ok i'm going to write some code to load a PCM encoded wave file
Kazan: (10:26 PM) (external _DATA_ files = good)
Avenger: (10:26 PM) for launcher = bad!!
Avenger: (10:26 PM) the idea is 1 file and thats it
Kazan: (10:26 PM) for any app that should be reusable = good
Avenger: (10:27 PM) true but i would rather incorp it into my program instead of dll, i want this to be good not sloppy now in my books having external files for a launcher resuable or not is bad
Kazan: (10:28 PM) you have everything ***  backwards.. who taught you to program
Avenger: (10:29 PM) meself,
Kazan: (10:29 PM) that's the problem.. you taught yourself - i taught myself.. then had to unlearn all those bad habits to learn how to code well
Avenger: (10:29 PM) i want this to be a download and run program not a download unpack and install then run program
Kazan: (10:30 PM) download and unpack... big woopty **** ... one whole extra step is preferable to having all your data files internal for one very good *******  reason:

you don't have to recompile to change graphics, music, etc - the freaking end-programmer [ie the Bab Project] could do it
Avenger: (10:31 PM) how do i make data files i have no idea,
Kazan: (10:31 PM) you have an external file, you open it and read it
Kazan: (10:31 PM) whoa.. what a concept
Avenger: (10:31 PM) huh?
Avenger: (10:32 PM) i dont have any external files with the babylon launcher
Kazan: (10:32 PM) like a .bmp file for each interface piece - a background, two versions of each icon
Kazan: (10:32 PM) data file = external file containing data

Avenger: (10:32 PM) jpg actually
Kazan: (10:32 PM) jpg is more difficult to load
Avenger: (10:32 PM) i know what a data file is but i dont know how to make them and use them
Kazan: (10:32 PM) i dont have a jpeg decompressor
Kazan: (10:32 PM) you don't know how to perform file handling?!
Avenger: (10:32 PM) u loaded the babylon launcher did'nt u?
Kazan: (10:33 PM) yes
Avenger: (10:33 PM) thats jpeg files
Kazan: (10:33 PM) no **** .. in resources
Kazan: (10:33 PM) do the same thing - just load it from a file
Avenger: (10:33 PM) what
Kazan: (10:33 PM) the JPEG is INSIDE THE PROGRAM in a RESOURCE
Avenger: (10:33 PM) correct
Kazan: (10:33 PM) this is why i hate self-taught programmers.. they know how to do things and not WHY to do thing
Avenger: (10:34 PM) i dont know how to make it call an external file
Kazan: (10:34 PM) and quite often have things ***  backwards
Kazan: (10:34 PM) you load the *******  file into memory at point at it the same frellling way - it's just a god damned bitbox
Avenger: (10:34 PM) i hate people like u who think they know how the end user works do u really wanna hear what people think about the end usablitly of ur programs
Kazan: (10:35 PM) most of them like them.. the only person that has issues is Ace and they're all bull****

and right now im talking about the end-developer not the end-user
Kazan: (10:35 PM) either way you still do things quater-***
Kazan: (10:35 PM) er quarter-***
Avenger: (10:36 PM) why am i
Kazan: (10:36 PM) because you do things and you don't know why you do them that way

you know only one method for doing each thing

you don't consider reusability or efficiency of coding
Kazan: (10:37 PM) we crucify self-taught programmers for our own pleasure.. because its sickening to clean up your code
Avenger: (10:37 PM) quote from DarkAge
adn i like your progs more they have a good interface and simple so every dumb ***  can understand it.I don't like Kazan's tools verry much in the interface sections.But they are the best in conversion and POF edeting


Avenger: (10:37 PM) wanna see the code in my program,
Kazan: (10:39 PM) umm.. you're interfaces are no simplier than mine,, you're just scream "i have too much time to write GUI"

and my GUIs work with much more complex things than youres
Avenger: (10:39 PM) i could do ur guis in about 30 seconds flat, i spend very little time on my gui and the most of my time on my coding
Kazan: (10:40 PM) no you couldnt
Kazan: (10:40 PM) considering i write 100% reusable code - it geometrically increases programming time, it auto makes debuging, and extending geometrically easier
Avenger: (10:40 PM) ok, i will start from scratch think of a GUI to make and i will make it
Kazan: (10:41 PM) you could make a GUI appearance for PCS in about 5 minutes - it would take you 4 days straight coding to plug it in though..
Avenger: (10:41 PM) oh forget it i dont care if it is not reusable, i am just making programs to do a purpose that people need if they want it to have external files then so be it but TBP do not want it
Kazan: (10:41 PM) im really getting tired of you talking out of your ***  because your mouth knows etter
Kazan: (10:42 PM) go take formal classes in programming.. and unlearn all that you have learned first - do not go in with the attitude 'i know my **** ' because you'll be OWNED
Avenger: (10:43 PM) kazan grow up and stop *****ing like a small girl just because all u can make is programs that must have following files
Kazan: (10:43 PM) avenger i could put all the files inside the program if i wanted to.. you think i can't?

look the few pieces of interface art i put into PCS they're resources
Avenger: (10:43 PM) try and make a program for once that will not require any exteranl file whatsoever
Avenger: (10:44 PM) what interface art?
Kazan: (10:44 PM) now look at the UAPI installer - which was ment for other people to be able to modify the file lists and install information - it's configuration files are external
Kazan: (10:45 PM) AutoCentering  Editor -  Ferret wireframe
Shields Editor - Ferret Wireframe w/ Shields wireframe
Special Editor - Ravana
Textures Editor - Orion
Avenger: (10:45 PM) bug deal i can make it configurable just with less hastle than urs but the babylon launcher is being made for the babylon project with customisable features that only babylon will have
Kazan: (10:45 PM) avenger.. you're so full of ****  it's not even funny
Avenger: (10:46 PM) lol hehehe ur the one *****ing not me
Kazan: (10:46 PM) you have a serious attitude that all self-taught programmers get

i had it myself until steve (strong) my Computer Science teacher kicked my butt enough
Kazan: (10:46 PM) im *****ing about valid points though
Kazan: (10:46 PM) i have a point, i know your side of the arguement too
Kazan: (10:46 PM) i have this thing called EXPIRIENCE
Avenger: (10:47 PM) hey i am doing my job and u do yours if i want to do it one way then so be it but who gives a ****
Avenger: (10:47 PM) kazan u are 17 i am 16 how long have u been coding?
Kazan: (10:47 PM) doing your job and doing it well are two different things
Avenger: (10:47 PM) i have been doing programming since i was 13
Kazan: (10:47 PM) i've been coding since i was 10

i have taken many formal programming classes
Kazan: (10:48 PM) 3 years of expirience vs 7 years + formal training
Avenger: (10:49 PM) i am taking classes at the momment but i have seen no change to the way i am doing things at the momment, maybe the way u are doing it is rifht maybe the way i am doing it is write as long as it works that is all that matters, and seeing as iam the only person going to be using the code why does it matter, if i was going to be sharing the code it would be well doced
Kazan: (10:50 PM) "as long as it works" isn't correct and isnt what matters

what matters In The Real World Of Coding is reusability, ease of use for the end-user or end-developer... in this case we're talking about an end-developer so maximum configurability is provided by external data files, even if it's 1 - a resource DLL
Avenger: (10:52 PM) i am the end-developer, i am going to be a member of TBP and i will keep the program updates
Kazan: (10:52 PM) you are not the END-developer
Avenger: (10:52 PM) yes i am, who else will be coding it?
Avenger: (10:53 PM) i will be maintaining it and no-one will be changing any settings
Kazan: (10:53 PM) you shouldn't have to be a member of TBP

if you had the end-developer in mind you would be having external config

you are the program developer - working for a project that uses it doesn't make you the end-developer - it's impossible (by definition) for the origional-programmer to be the end-developer
Kazan: (10:54 PM) " i will be maintaining it and no-one will be changing any settings"

make it as un-reusable as possible so people NEED you
Avenger: (10:54 PM) how is it, take freespace 2, they made it have we been the end-developer?
Avenger: (10:54 PM) nope
Kazan: (10:55 PM) Volition made it

they're configuration files are completely external

the .tbl files are how you change the configuration

all mod developers are end-developers,

without those external config files there would be no modability

------------------------------------------------------

people that just play the game are end-users
Avenger: (10:56 PM) i have to go u are doing my head in

[The Avenger]

now u see why i posted this just to tell u all how p i s s e d i am

[DragonClaw]

You two are both the same now...


Each of you always want their own way and just won't listen to the other.

Few things:

Kazan- You really need to stop swearing so much
Avenger- Quit argueing about what Kazan says all the time.

Just STOP argueing, both of you, about who is better! Does it matter? NO! You'll find that out later.

------------------
    -Director of the staff of Hidden Terror.
    -WebMaster of Imperial Productions

 

The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!

[The Avenger]

i do listen to what he says just not when he annoys me

[Ace]

I don't want to get involved in a flame war, but Avenger is willing to listen to suggestions with his installers and such, as well as the work I've seen from him is very high quality.

The key here is that he listens and is not critical.

Also, from reading the chat log, Avenger's main goal is for the installer to just be a single .exe file... yet you insist that he must have library files for the installer...

------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Kazan]

way to start a flame war (looks up flame 1)
 http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame13.html

this is a rather weak attack.. i have more expirience than you and that's that

i trust you to not have edited those logs.. if you did i'll crucify you later

[Nico]

mmh, I don't want to take position on that but kazan:
"what matters In The Real World Of Coding is reusability"
WTF??? What matters is OPTIMISATION, bordel! reusability gave us the windows series and the kernel fatal errors dude. I don't give a ****  if you can't use your codings in your next prog. I don't give a ****  if Volition rewrote their 3D engine between FS2 and Summoning. And for my part I prefer a one file prog, not a one data folder full of files prog. What I want is a good result. Period.

[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by venom2506:

WTF??? What matters is OPTIMISATION

only in games - and you dont have to sacrfice reusability to have optimization

 

Originally posted by venom2506:
reusability gave us the windows series and the kernel fatal errors dude.

actually that wasn't reusability, either way it was merely poorly coded


 

Originally posted by venom2506:
And for my part I prefer a one file prog, not a one data folder full of files prog. What I want is a good result. Period.

the issue here is actually the end-developer being able to change the program (a launcher)- ie the graphics, and sounds, without calling Avenger.  That's the way it should be done.

[Sandwich]

  @ all of ya.... Gimme a good old batch file to use as an installer any day!  

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Kazan]

that's what im talking about    

[The Avenger]

sand this is not just about the batch file it is about programing in general

[DragonClaw]

Kazan why don't let Avenger program the way he wants, he'll suffer the conciquences for the way he programs(getting messages all the time on wanting a custom installer, or different program).
If he doesn't want to change, its his problem.

So, my theories:

Stick to your own programming methods, and quit argueing over which way of programming is better.

------------------
    -Director of the staff of Hidden Terror.
    -WebMaster of Imperial Productions

 

The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!

[Kazan]

good point.. but i'm trying to save him the agony and embarassment of having a profi teacher OWN his butt on all this stuff in college..


trust me it's quite embarassing

[Stryke 9]

I never read long posts, particularly when they are quotes, but I got the general impression that you think Kazan has an ego problem, is mean, etc. All of which are true at times, but so far few have become so indispensable to the community, as he has been the only actual programmer here for quite some time. If you have a problem with the fact that he also spouts abuse like a volcano (it's true, Kazan), well, that's how he is, if you feel you just have to shut him up, then just PROVE HIM WRONG, do better than him, end of story! Happy ending!

And for the record, there must be something about HLP programmers that does that... you're beginning to sound just the same.

[Warlock]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:

this is a rather weak attack.. i have more expirience than you and that's that

Ya know that's one of the lamest excuses in this world dude    Funny...didn't Bill himself have less experience than most full time programs when he built windows and took over?

Experience is a good thing....until you use it has a crutch to never listen to a new idea or concept or simply ignore everyone else.

Oh well just my 2 cents,...let's see how long my flame takes   (not that I really care lol )

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Warlock
           
DeathAngel Squadron
CO

Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
DeathAngel Squadron and Ghosts of the Past Forum
Ghosts of the Past WebSite
To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.


We may rise and fall, but in the end
 We meet our fate together

[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
also spouts abuse like a volcano (it's true, Kazan)

yes when i get frustraited with someone not listening .. it gets very tiring when you have people doing this constantly.. oui... too long of story


 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
if you feel you just have to shut him up, then just PROVE HIM WRONG, do better than him, end of story! Happy ending!

yes.. i would really be proud of him if he took my advice for once, and that would also shut me the h3ll up so fast it wouldn't even be funny.  

I have things to teach and don't know how to go about teaching them.

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Warlock:
didn't Bill himself have less experience than most full time programs when he built windows and took over?

Excepted Bill didn't built the DOS, he stole it from a guy who first did it exclusively for IBM, and then went bankrupt.

[IceFire]

 

Also, from reading the chat log, Avenger's main goal is for the installer to just be a single .exe file... yet you insist that he must have library files for the installer...

Good lord...if the launcher wasn't one file, it'd REALLY suck from a user/file manager viewpoint.

[Warlock]

Calmly without insulting or cursing at them perhaps?   Merely a suggestion.

I know instruction can get quite frustrating...I used to have to teach courses my last 2 years in the army...you think ppl here are headcases,...try a kid fresh out of training that doesn't even know WTF his job IS? (Seriously a kid got to my unit fresh from Radio tech school....at the time the Army had swapped to 90% total useage of the SINGARS radio,..had done this 2 years prior and we were in ALASKA ...the place in line for parts AFTER reserves  lol ...he looked at that SINGARS...then asked me what it was!   ARRGGGHHH!!...So I just told him to find the supply Sgt and get an order of black highlighters...a box of form ID-10-Ts, and a package of chem-light batteries......took him most of the day to figure it out    sigh)

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Warlock
           
DeathAngel Squadron
CO

Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
DeathAngel Squadron and Ghosts of the Past Forum
Ghosts of the Past WebSite
To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.


We may rise and fall, but in the end
 We meet our fate together

[Warlock]

 

Originally posted by venom2506:

Originally posted by Warlock:
didn't Bill himself have less experience than most full time programs when he built windows and took over?

Excepted Bill didn't built the DOS, he stole it from a guy who first did it exclusively for IBM, and then went bankrupt.[/B]

Ummm point enterly missed?   lol  

------------------
Warlock
           
DeathAngel Squadron
CO

Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
DeathAngel Squadron and Ghosts of the Past Forum
Ghosts of the Past WebSite
To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.


We may rise and fall, but in the end
 We meet our fate together