Author Topic: Some Things  (Read 11416 times)

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Offline Polpolion

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not the first time... sort of...

and i guess the second time was more of a draw on the way to loseing.

ok let me put it THIS way: we held them off twice. (and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova)     :)

 

Offline Taristin

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(and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova)     :)


Umm... No? We didn't hold them off. We locked them out. Temporarily.

And They made Capella supernova. Not us. That was the main reason they enterred the system! If that wasn't their focus, and they wanted to go to, say, Delta Serpentis, and supernova that star, we'd not have been able to stop them. Don't be so naive.
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Offline FireCrack

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Yeah, both times it was just that we got lucky, theres nothing to say the sheivans even sent a scout beyond cappela cononicaly..
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Um, ok, if the Shivans really wanted to whipe us out, they had the ability to destroy stars - they could've not only obliterated our race, but every system in which we had ever lived.

And I'm not quite sure by what you mean by your last post :p :wtf:

 

Offline knn

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Recommended read: shivan manifesto (warning: loooong): http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html
IMO it's the best explanation of the shivans' origins and motives.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Hmmm, the Shivans didn't run away as the big post says, they got exactly what they wanted. And another interesting thought is the reason the Knossos is never found is that when inactive it cloaks? The Shivan com-node spins in a manner like the Knossos. And that the Shivans didn't want to destroy us compleatly, would explain your question on how the GTVA kept toe to toe with them at the start..

Both wars was a trap to get us to do something greater.
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Offline Polpolion

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(and we wouldve held em off even w/ out cappella supernova) :)


Umm... No? We didn't hold them off. We locked them out. Temporarily.

And They made Capella supernova. Not us. That was the main reason they enterred the system! If that wasn't their focus, and they wanted to go to, say, Delta Serpentis, and supernova that star, we'd not have been able to stop them. Don't be so naive.


OK my mistake. I didnt mean that WE made the supernova. bad use of words sorry.
anyway im not THAT stupid! I beat the game 3 times! (thats probly not that much compared to you guys)
Recommended read: shivan manifesto (warning: loooong): http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html
IMO it's the best explanation of the shivans' origins and motives.

thanx  :)





Oh and while im posting- why didn't command just chuck a  whole bunch meson bombs at the Saths?
i mean, you construct a giant gun, and BOOM.
besides costing billions of dollars, not haveing the recources, and this idea being stupid, it woulda worked!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 07:40:13 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline Odd Writings

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Uhm...TheSizzler...I doubt that it would've worked. I mean...look at the endgame movie.

They left Sathanases there when it went Supernova. I highly doubt that they would miss them.

So...one gun that fires Meson Bombs versus a fleet of Sathanases. I would put my money on the Sathanas fleet. They can cut the -ing bombs down with a tightly knit net of beam cannon fire...right?

>>; I managed to get minuses on kills...that be bad, right?

 

Offline knn

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Hmmm, the Shivans didn't run away as the big post says, they got exactly what they wanted. And another interesting thought is the reason the Knossos is never found is that when inactive it cloaks? The Shivan com-node spins in a manner like the Knossos. And that the Shivans didn't want to destroy us compleatly, would explain your question on how the GTVA kept toe to toe with them at the start..

Both wars was a trap to get us to do something greater.

No, according to the manifesto, the Trinity activated the Knossos, which hurt subspace bad. The Shivans immediately came to investigate. They were not interested in the inactive Knossos as it did nothing to subspace. Now there's one problem with that theory: the second knossos in the system beyond the nebula. It's spinning -> it's active -> it's hurting subspace -> shivans should be destroying it. A possible explanation could be that the Knossos inflicts damage only when activated, no damage (or only minimal) while operational. Both portals were activated by the Ancients, but they deactivated the first one to stop the Shivans (the Knossos is probably capable of shutting down the node, but if destroyed while active, the node will remain active for centuries. Very bad simple example: turn off a helicopter's engines and the rotors will keep rotating for some time. Switch the engine in reverse for a short time and they'll stop much faster.)

Now about the Capella part:
Quote
For a moment, let us look at the situation from the strategic point of view.  The Shivans have amassed a juggernaut armada in-system, and are poised to launch a full-scale strike upon Allied space, a spearhead which the fatigued GTVA is not likely to survive.  Yet, instead of invading Allied territory, the Shivans choose instead to destroy the star, killing the mere handful of refugees in the system at the time, and losing several juggernauts in the process, perhaps a substantial portion of their fleet (though an accurate figure is impossible to determine, since we are provided with only one camera angle in the cutscene to observe).  In addition, those juggernauts that are not destroyed enter subspace, but to the best of our knowledge, there are no inter-system nodes other than those leading to Vega and Epsilon Pegasi.  The juggernauts could not make an in-system jump without being caught by the supernova blast, so just what was their destination?

Quote
To understand the solution, we must observe the problem from the Shivan standpoint.  Throughout their incursion, the Shivans gained very little ground against the GTVA.  The furthest-encroaching Shivan vessel was the original Sathanas, and it was destroyed in Capella--merely one jump from Gamma Draconis--by the GTVA Colossus.  It is likely that the Shivans, in all their destructive fury, had never previously lost a vessel of that magnitude to an enemy.  Since they were never able to advance any further than Capella (with the exception of a Shivan force that attacked the Vega-Capella node in the endgame), the Shivans could not know for certain just how many Colossus-class vessels the GTVA had in their ranks.  For all they knew, a fleet of the mammoth vessels could have been waiting deep within GTVA territory, waiting to spring a trap on the advancing Shivan fleet.  Faced with such uncertain opposition, the Shivans took the only course of action open to them:

They ran away.  The Shivans were not attacking the GTVA, but retreating from it.

I know it's hard to believe that our beloved superpowerful Shivans ran away. That's because we know how much more powerful 80 Saths are than our entire fleet. But they don't. The entire part "h. You're full of it, buddy.  The Shivans would never back down from a fight." is about this.

I've just noticed that the end seems to be missing. This must be because of the new server. Shame.
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Offline pecenipicek

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I assume by "Shivans SUCK!" you mean "The enemies SUCK!" Try setting your difficulty to Hard. Then try dogfighting with some Dragons, or going head-to-head with a Lilith, and let us know how it goes.
Do not ever say that again. I had problems in a bloody ulysses to take em down.

for ****s and giggles, i tried to get the dragons in a Loki. I ended up preffering Loki over the Perseus and Ulysses :p
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Offline Polpolion

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Uhm...TheSizzler...I doubt that it would've worked. I mean...look at the endgame movie.

They left Sathanases there when it went Supernova. I highly doubt that they would miss them.

So...one gun that fires Meson Bombs versus a fleet of Sathanases. I would put my money on the Sathanas fleet. They can cut the -ing bombs down with a tightly knit net of beam cannon fire...right?




yeah... i know... just had to get that out though!

 

Offline Flipside

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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.

Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.

Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.

 

Offline redsniper

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Well... in Derelict the Shivans pretty much rip us a new one with only 3 destroyers and some supporting ships. When it comes down to table values, the Shivans might not be that greatm but good FREDing and story are what make them seem invincible. :nod:
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Offline Polpolion

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         :hammer:   <------ me
        :mad2: <------ shivans


HA!!!  :)

I bet the shivans don't have cool SMILIES like THESE!!!

 

Offline Unknown Target

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I suggest you stop trying to be annoying, sizzler. Now.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.

Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.

Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.

I happen to think the Shivan Manifesto is a load of old tosh, to be honest.

  

Offline knn

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Whilst the conversation is fine, please bear in mind that the Shivan Manifesto, whilst well written, is mostly one persons view of events. Do not take it as canon, the community was left with precious little information regarding the Shivans motives, and I believe that was intentional.

Personally, I very much doubt the Shivans ran. They're the destroyers, as the Ancients and Vasudans call them. To have fear would suggest some knowledge of 'self' as more important than the whole, Shivans never showed that kind of action, even when vastly outnumbered, Shivans would fight on to destruction. I don't think the thought of failure or death ever enters a Shivans mind, indeed, after the Lucifer was destroyed, very little at all entered the Shivans minds... that may be a hint from volition, it may not.

Volition warned us against applying human or even insectoid values to the Shivans, and for me, this falls into exactly that trap.

I happen to think the Shivan Manifesto is a load of old tosh, to be honest.

If we all agreed on everything, the world wouldn't be the fun place it is  :)
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man and let history make its own judgments." -- Zefram Cochrane

 

Offline Flipside

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Hehe, going by that rule, you would believe ho much fun this place can be sometimes ;)

 

Offline Roanoke

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I wonder if we'll ever find out what V had in mind. Maybe Dave B will appear one day out of the blue and spill the beans.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Of the course the Shivans didn't just run away. I personally think that the Shivans did their job, and, once it was completed, left.

Take a look at when and why the Shivans have or would have come. Freespace 1 took place at the beginning of the fourteenth year of the T-V War. Heavy casualties have been inflicted on both sides of the conflict, and then, without warning, the Shivans arrive and begin to devastate Terran and Vasudan forces on all fronts. As the Terrans and Vasudans bind together to fight the Shivans, another force arrives--the Hammer of Light. At first, the Hammer of Light composes possibly a significant portion of the PVN fleet and continues to disturb the fragile GTA-PVN ceasefire during the Great War.

The Shivans level Vasuda Prime and finally move on towards Earth and Sol. At the same time, Ancient records in Altair are discovered, and at about the time of the recovery, the HLD Anvil, a Hammer of Light flagship, is destroyed by the recovery group. Shortly thereafter, the Terrans and Vasudans destroy the Lucifer in subspace, sealing the jump node to Sol and ending the Shivan invasion.

Why did the Shivan come during the T-V War? I think simply to end the conflict between the Terrans and Vasudans. We know that the Shivans have opposition to races using subspace to expand and/or wage war--this is evident with the Ancients' empire. Noticing that a war had broken out between two subspace-faring races, the Shivans were awaken and arrived to end the conflict by whatever means necessary--by unifying the races, or by completing wiping them out.

Thanks to the Hammer of Light and their continued crusade against the GTA and PVN, the Shivans did not halt their attacks--they instead destroyed Vasuda Prime and moved on to destroy Earth. After the destruction of the Lucifer, the Shivans possibly remained for a while longer. As the Hammer of Light (and the new Hades Rebellion) was whittled down and made more and more powerless, I would assume that the Shivans would have eventually begun disappearing here.

In FS2, after about thirty years of peace between the Terrans and Vasudans, the Neo-Terran Front forms and rebels against the established GTVA. A couple of years into the rebellion, Admiral Bosch sends the NTC Trinity to activate the Knossos portal in Gamma Draconis. The Shivans arrive again, and penetrate all the way to Capella. At the same time, Admiral Bosch initiates his first contact with the Shivans. Shortly after, the Shivans cause the Capella star to go supernova, ending the Second Great War.

Why did the Shivans come the second time? Two reasons, possibly--the NTF Rebellion. Just like the T-V War thirty-two years ago, the Rebellion pitted two powers against each other in a costly war. The death and the use of subspace again to transport warships through to battlegrounds would likely have been enough to bring the Shivans back.

Secondly, the possible activation of the Knossos could have triggered some subspace disturbance--a loss in the equilibrium of subspace nodes in the sector of the galaxy. The Shivans return, and, since the Knossos portal had stabilized by the time the Shivans were pouring into Gamma Draconis and Capella, there was nothing the GTVA could have done to collapse the extremely powerful vortex connecting possibly one section of the galaxy to another.

When Admiral Bosch makes contact with the Shivans, the actual Shivan offensive appears to turn towards mostly toward the Sathanas juggernauts. As the 80+ Sathanes close in on Capella, the GTVA begins to evacuate and prepares to shut down the two nodes GTVA-controlled nodes at Vega and Epsilon Pegasi. The Shivans cause the Capella supernova through an unusual subspace disturbance just as the Nereid collapses the jump node to Vega.

The loss of equilibrium in the subspace nodes in the Gamma Draconis sector through the activation of the Knossos could have caused the Shivans to want to destabilize other nodes to restore the balance. As we said, we can't apply human characteristics to the Shivans, so it is possible that the Shivans were more than capable of realizing that the GTVA would have discovered some way to stop the Shivans if they were faced with an unstoppable juggernaut force--collapsing the nodes.

My theory here is that when the Shivans destroyed Capella and created the unusual subspace disturbance, it may have either permanently sealed what the GTVA had done to the Vega and Epsilon Pegasi nodes, yet generated just a stable enough vortex for part of the juggernaut armada to jump out once the star had been destabilized enough. Thus, the balance is restored: the loss of two or three nodes in Capella may have balanced the subspace force as the Shivans would have come for. Without an NTF Rebellion or major conflict to deal with, the Shivans were focused more on the subspace nodes, and not ending a conflict, as they could have intended early on.

So, summary: The Shivans are the Great Preservers and an intergalactic police force. They monitor subspace equilibrium and control intergalactic disputes through their own methods. The Shivans are not a stationary species bent on expansion and conquest, but only appear when a problem must be dealt with.

Argue, please.
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