[Kosh]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/



Looks like there is some hope for american children after all.

[Polpolion]

Why couldn't those peeps just say that both evolution and intelligent design are possibilities, or better yet, teach both of them to us and let US decide? 

[redsniper]

^^ *hands you a flame retardant suit*
Oh, and w00t for the ruling. 

[Kosh]

Why couldn't those peeps just say that both evolution and intelligent design are possibilities, or better yet, teach both of them to us and let US decide?

Because "Intelligent design" isn't science. If they want to teach it in church, fine. But it should be kept out of public education system.

[karajorma]

Why couldn't those peeps just say that both evolution and intelligent design are possibilities, or better yet, teach both of them to us and let US decide? 

When the main proponent of Intelligent Design has to admit in court that ID isn't a scientific theory unless you change the definition of what a scientific theory actually is you pretty much have your reason.

No one has ever said that ID can't be taught in religious education class (which is where it belongs) but it's not science and therefore has no place in a science class.

[Nuke]

id is just the church trying to parket religion to brainy nerdy kids.

oh i cant wait till varg gets out of jail

[Janos]

H. Conclusion

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.

Both Defendants and many of the leading proponents of ID make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs’ scientific experts testified that the theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the existence of a divine creator.

To be sure, Darwin’s theory of evolution is imperfect. However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions.

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.

With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.

Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.

To preserve the separation of church and state mandated by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and Art. I, § 3 of the Pennsylvania Constitution, we will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID. We will also issue a declaratory judgment that Plaintiffs’ rights under the Constitutions of the United States and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have been violated by Defendants’ actions. Defendants’ actions in violation of Plaintiffs’ civil rights as guaranteed to them by the Constitution of the United States and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 subject Defendants to liability with respect to injunctive and declaratory relief, but also for nominal damages and the reasonable value of Plaintiffs’ attorneys’ services and costs incurred in vindicating Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights.

Oh dear I hope he didn't offend anyone.

[Unknown Target]

Why couldn't those peeps just say that both evolution and intelligent design are possibilities, or better yet, teach both of them to us and let US decide?

Think of it this way: would you want them to teach both alchemy and chemistry, and let you decide which one you want to believe in?

[phatosealpha]

Well, I imagine most students would be very happy with the 'you choose what to believe in' approach, especially in math class.  "But I believe 2+2=5!"

[Polpolion]

Yeah but we KNOW 2 and 2 isn't 5. Do we KNOW one is correct and one isn't? Was someone there that is still around today that we can ask?

*puts on flame retardent suit that was given to me by redsniper*

[Ransom]

It's not about which one is correct. It's about which one is science and which one is not.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah but we KNOW 2 and 2 isn't 5. Do we KNOW one is correct and one isn't? Was someone there that is still around today that we can ask?

Anyone looking to know the absolute truth doesn't belong in a science class, but a philosophy class. Science is about disproving things.

Darwinian evolution has survived well over a century of scientific scrutiny and is yet to be disproved, marking it as good science. ID has barely existed, what, two decades, is fundamentally un-testable (and therefore not disproveable, and thus not scientific), and supported by 'evidence' that is easily disproven. Thus it's not good science, or science at all.

Teach Evolution in Science class, ID in RE.

[Kosh]

Yeah but we KNOW 2 and 2 isn't 5. Do we KNOW one is correct and one isn't? Was someone there that is still around today that we can ask?

*puts on flame retardent suit that was given to me by redsniper*

It is little wonder why American students keep getting badly pwn3d in science.

[Ace]

Was someone there that is still around today that we can ask?

I do. His name is Jesus Christ. He just told me that he was just a regular old rabbi with some new ideas who got killed and embellished over the years, and that the universe is 13.2 billion years old. He also mentioned the hot Elerians he met beyond the rim too

BTW, he said that his birthday is *not* on December 25 but was in the spring. However any excuse to party and bring people together is good in his book so he doesn't mind.

Now spread the Good News biatches.

[Kamikaze]

Some interesting quotes I fetched from the Wikipedia article:

Closing arguments were made on 2005-11-04. Upon completion of the closing arguments, Mr Gillen asked Judge Jones, "By my reckoning, this is the 40th day since the trial began and tonight will be the 40th night, and I would like to know if you did that on purpose." To which the judge responded, "Mr. Gillen, that is an interesting coincidence, but it was not by design," eliciting laughter and applause from those present.

Quotes from the decision:

"A significant aspect of the IDM [intelligent design movement] is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity." (page 26)

"Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree." (footnote 7 on page 46)

"After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science." (pg. 64)

Yay for sanity.

[phatosealpha]

Strictly speaking, I'm not sure we KNOW 2+2 = 4, but rather simply define it as such.  Mathematics is little more then a complicated tautology, in the end.  A very useful tautology, but a tautology all the same.

Ultimately, if we're dependent only on things which are completely and totally undeniably, and not merely which the preponderance of evidence supports, we might as well close down the schools now - nothing is beyond arguement.

[Bobboau]

1+1=10

[Kamikaze]

Ultimately, if we're dependent only on things which are completely and totally undeniably, and not merely which the preponderance of evidence supports, we might as well close down the schools now - nothing is beyond arguement.

You might want to read about Gödel's theorem. Math isn't quite as black and white as you'd like to think.

[Clave]

A common-sense ruling from a judge?!? in America?!? the World is ending! 

[Singh]

A common-sense ruling from a judge?!? in America?!? the World is ending!

I get dibs on the Plasma rifles!!

*heads to the lockers and tries to open them