[Flipside]

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5184

Teenage rape victim in Iran to be hanged for killing one of her attackers during the incident.

Ok, I'm fully aware that this is possibly part of an Anti-Iran build-up, it bears a great similarity to pre-Afghanistan reports about the Taliban, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. I'm speechless...utterly so. 

[Ford Prefect]

Doesn't surprise me. Iran makes no pretense about its being a civil rights ****hole.

[an0n]

Well, he wasn't intending to kill her, and she did kill him.

So even if it had happened in the US or UK she'd still be charged with Manslaughter, as it doesn't count as self-defence.

[Rictor]

The world is not fundamentally a fair place. Yes, it sucks, and is an atrocious miscarriage of justice, but tens if not hundreds of thousands die every day from much more mundane things. And I cynical enough to believe that this is being used to drum up support for action against Iran, ala Saddam's incubator babies.

[Flipside]

Indeed, and our continued turning a blind eye and shrugging off of it as 'one of those things' helps the world continue along precisely the same path. And no, I'm not a cloud-nine dreamer who thinks the world can be perfect, but I can't help wondering why we have to wait till someone wants to declare military action before people start paying attention to these things.

[an0n]

Am I the only one noticing that she killed a man.

It's not like they just decided to hang her for no reason. She put a ****ing knife in a guy's chest.

And not a knife she'd wrestled from her merciless attackers - one she'd been carrying around in her pocket to stab people with.

[Flipside]

Yes, she killed a man, who was trying to rape her, do you think she would have pulled the knife and defended herself from someone who wasn't attacking her? Had she punched him in the nose and pushed the bone back into his brain, it would still have killed him.

If someone had tried to sexually assault you, would you just stand there and let it happen?

[Ford Prefect]

And I don't know about the UK, but I'm pretty sure that her case would stand up in a US court.

[kasperl]

@an0n:
And the guy tried to rape her.

Tell you what, next time you get attacked in a dark alley, and kick the ****ing pikey who did it in the face, and accidentally kill him in the process, you can go in for murder as well. That was what, 20 to life in England?

Hell, in any western country she'd be acquitted as it was self defence. In the US people carry guns to prevent getting attacked, and that's sanctioned in the bloody constitution.

[Rictor]

Personally, I think the court ought to have a chat with the girl's boyfriend, who ran off like a pussy. Islamic law regarding women subordinates them, but also obliges men to protect women because they have less rights to fend for themselves. Clearly that system doesn't really work when the man takes off at the first sign of trouble.

[kasperl]

That too.

The boyfriends should at least have taken the girls with them on the bikes.

[karajorma]

Of course it is. By a country that also executes minors, no less.

[aldo_14]

Am I the only one noticing that she killed a man.

It's not like they just decided to hang her for no reason. She put a ****ing knife in a guy's chest.

And not a knife she'd wrestled from her merciless attackers - one she'd been carrying around in her pocket to stab people with.

I carry a knife around.  It's a swiss army knife; it's on my car keyring and I use the blade as a screwdriver.  Having a knife alone is not evidence of intent.

You're talking about a 17 year old teenager, who used a weapon when being attacked by 3 men attempting to rape her and her younger niece.  There is a clear issue of proportionate force; she may have had a knife, but she was against 3 men.  And there is clear evidence of immenent danger to her life; not only does she not know if her attackers will kill her to keep her shut up, she's in a country where being raped can be punished by the death penalty (for adultery).

[WeatherOp]

What a pack of retarded idoitic morons. This kind of mess makes my blood boil.

[Shade]

A punishment for the killing would be fair, but that sentence is way over the edge. Self defense, and defending your niece has to count for a something, and certainly would anywhere else.

Doesn't say anything about what's going to happen to the would-be rapists, so they're probably gonna walk I guess. Which sucks. I mean, given their flair for cruel and unusual punishments over there, an appropriate punishment for rape would be to castrate them and then stone them to death with their own, well, stones... I'm quite sure people would think twice about committing rape if that were the norm.

[an0n]

Somehow I doubt a Muslim woman would be carrying a pen-knife so she could manipulate screws and whittle sticks.

She was carrying the knife purely so she'd have a weapon to use against anyone who accosted her.

So she was carrying a weapon with intent to cause harm. And she killed a man.

Under US and UK law that would get her charged with Manslaughter with reduced sentence on the grounds of Diminished Responsibility. If she was in the US and it was her '3rd strike' that would mean death.

Her sentence is harsh, but not especially brutal.

And given the general level of women's rights in Iran, her sentence is probably more to keep the peace than to punish her specifically. Arranged and forced marriages being commonplace, any dissatisfied wife could murder her husband and his family and claim it was done to prevent a gang-rape.

Also, I find it ironic that she was pretty much completely ****ed from the moment they started throwing stones at her. If she'd done nothing she'd've been raped and killed. But by fighting them off and killing one of them, she's going to be raped in an Iranian prison then hanged.

She'd probably have been better off just letting them rape and kill her.

[Rictor]

Just as a comparison, 18 innocent people are killed by a US missle, and it's hardly worth reporting. Not as dramatic, but a life is a life and a death is a death.

[aldo_14]

Somehow I doubt a Muslim woman would be carrying a pen-knife so she could manipulate screws and whittle sticks.

She was carrying the knife purely so she'd have a weapon to use against anyone who accosted her.

So she was carrying a weapon with intent to cause harm. And she killed a man.

Under US and UK law that would get her charged with Manslaughter with reduced sentence on the grounds of Diminished Responsibility. If she was in the US and it was her '3rd strike' that would mean death.

Her sentence is harsh, but not especially brutal.

And given the general level of women's rights in Iran, her sentence is probably more to keep the peace than to punish her specifically. Arranged and forced marriages being commonplace, any dissatisfied wife could murder her husband and his family and claim it was done to prevent a gang-rape.

Also, I find it ironic that she was pretty much completely ****ed from the moment they started throwing stones at her. If she'd done nothing she'd've been raped and killed. But by fighting them off and killing one of them, she's going to be raped in an Iranian prison then hanged.

She'd probably have been better off just letting them rape and kill her.

Diminished responsibility only applies to individuals suffering from some form of mental incapacity ("abnormality of the mind") which can be said to lead to the act, and which can be said to reduce the capacity of ther defendent to take responsibility for their actions.  This usually would require evidence of an existing condition such as depression, schizophrenia, etc.

The intent to cause harm cannot be proven; specifically on 2 tenets - firstly, that self defence can only occur in the event of an attack, and secondly that the intention was to use the weapon rather than simply threaten with it (or, indeed, that the weapon was intended for use as such other than simply as a tool, which you cannot fairly assume).

I don't know about UK law (oddly; although there have been very, very few prosecutions made for killings or assaults in self-defence, and most were in cases involving the likes of torture against burglars, etc), but in the US killing would be legal in this situation; I believe the restriction is simply that you have to try to escape first (if in a public place).

[an0n]

Just because no UK/US court would prosecute doesn't mean it's not still illegal.

And diminished responsibility also sometimes covers trauma and shock - crimes of passion and whatnot. Like if you come home from your brother's funeral to find your wife ****ing the milkman.

It won't get you off, but it'll get your sentence reduced.

[Flipside]

Thing is, to write off one crime by pointing at another is dealing with nothing, yes, what happened in Pakistan was just as disgusting and wrong, I don't deny that, but the whole excuse of 'Well, he's doing bad things too!' doesn't wash with me, it sounds like something out of a nursery (and no, that's not aimed at you Rictor, it's a technique being used a lot by governments etc everywhere). Something should be done about it, but nothing will because people are lazy and complacent and scared of change. People would rather tell other people to 'mend their ways' than actually do something about their own.

And yes, I agree that not punishing the girl at all for killing a man is also wrong, but so is hanging her, undeniably so. The first 'wrong' was commited by one person, who was scared and in danger, that doesn't forgive the crime, and as far as carrying a knife is concerned, I'm not certain what the law is in Iran with regards to posessing a weapon, regardless of Gender. Certainly, in Sikh culture, it's actually a cultural requirement, but as far as Muslim culture is concerned I'm not sure, more than likely Men can, but women can't.

The second 'wrong', however, was commited by an entire state, an entire set of laws drawn up by 'supposedly' those responsible for defending the public from both inside and outside threats. They weren't there to defend this woman, and so, for defending herself, she is to be killed.

Legailty depends on the laws, and nothing else. It's all very well saying 'Well it's written down, so you shouldn't do it', that way lay fundamentalism at it's very core. Law and Order are important things, but are they really worth giving up humanity for?

Meh, don't even know why I'm debating this, everyone will just say 'Well, it's a bad world' and go back to being glad it's not happening to them. Right up to the point when it is.