[morris13]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
Yes, but there also many places, doing the exact same experiments that haven't got positive results.

Thats exactly right. Until the people have claimed to make cold fusion work can show other people how to make it work in exactly the same way it just isn't real for any practical purpose. Experiments that can't be duplicated are of no use to anybody.

On a different note, it isn't quite true that you can fuse anything you want to. Fusion only works as an energy source in stars until the core gets to the point where it's trying to fuse Iron. Once it gets the this point it takes more energy to fuse the iron atoms than you get back when they fuse, and this is what causes most stars to die out. Atoms of higher atomic weight than iron aren't capable of being made by the normal fusion reactions that occur in a star. Instead they are formed by lighter atoms being violently smashed together during stellar collapses, especially supernovae (Capella anyone). So although it is true that you can make anything fuse, given high enough pressure and temperature, past a certain point you're losing most of the energy it takes to do it.

[Shrike]

I never said you'd want to fuse most elements....after about boron or so you start to get vastly decreasing amounts of energy per nucleon.  Really, straight hydrogen fusion is the best one, you get the most energy/mass of reactant.

[wEvil]

i reckon the shivans would use a zero-point field or antimatter.

[wEvil]

encase that needs an explanation.

a standard nuclear reaction results in a 7-8& conversion of mass to energy i think.

antimatter is 100% conversion, since they annihalate each other.

a zero point field doesnt even need any fuel to start with.  In a total vacuum, quantum uncertainty predicts that particle/antiparticle pairs wil flash into and out of existance, and that in either an intense gravity field (around a SMALL black hole..that has a steeper gravity well) or between two smooth peices of mass set exactly one wavelength apart, some of these pairs may become split up and one will "die" (collide with the mass or fall down into the gravity well) and the other may escape.

this also causes the black hole to evaporate, in the case of the gravity well model, or in the case of a generator it will cause an energy flash in the mass.

and the kayser supposedly uses a ZP field so i dont see why the shivans wouldnt use such an obviously superior energy source as their main power supply

[The Claw]

I've already posted a link, Maeglamor, but if u can't be bothered to go back, have another one  
 http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/

Now, just because some experiments DON'T get it to succede doesn't mean it's a viable source of energy. I could easilly make a experiment involving a lightbulb not work, but that doesn't mean that lightbulbs dont.
 The explanation on the site above about why others havn't been able to reproduce it is that the "loading" process of the metals needed is extremely delicate, and can sometimes leave cracks in the metal leaving it unviable. I am sure that if they repeated the experiment, and gave it a fair test it would work...
 And I'll also be willing to bet these experiments were run by people who are somehow connected to the Hot Fusion project, and don't want to see there "hard earned" funding go down the drain just because someone else has come up with a more viable and economical power source.

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"Supernova, ya supernova, supernova goes pop
supernova, ya think it's over but the supernova don't stop" PM5K
Death:"Arnold Judas Rimmer... your life is over. You will travel with me to the-"
#knees death in the groin#
Rimmer:"Remember matey, it's only the good that die young"
"Do not fear the chickens. Become one with the chickens. Respect the chickens and... #BOK!# LEG IT!!!"
The Claw... project coordinater of Alternate Reality and Story-line help-guy of The Perfect Storm.

[This message has been edited by The Claw (edited 05-14-2001).]

[Martinus]

Sorry, if you look at some of my posts you might notice that I miss things...

I like to work a little too fast  

Thanks for the link anyway.

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Brain over...
Insert coin

[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by Starwing:
True. Fusion reactors don't explode. If a fusion reactor gets unstable the fusion reaction simply stops.

Incorrect: See Hydrogen bomb

If the damage happens in certain ways the fusion reaction may become uncontrolled


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[KillMeNow]

fission reactions can start with 1 atom releases an extra neutron and starts a cascading chain reaction and bang - however in reality 1 atom isn't enough - there is something called spontaneous fission which at first it hought should have stockpiles of uranium and plutonium blowing up left right and center becasue of the cahin reaction is should create but as i understand it that would only be the case if the nuclear fuels were 100% totally pure other tiny amounts of other elements sever to obsord the neutrons and hence stop an imediate chain reaction and the energy conversion rate isn't anything like 7% its tiny i'm sure - however antimatter is indeed 100%

cold fusion - well the claw i believe it explaind it earlier and he said chemical - and thats the key word in cold fusion  - its misslabled - it isn't fusion at all its a chemical reaction - and those that have reproduced the effect probally did but the claim that it was fusion was destroyed when done under proper condistions

fusion the last best hope of mankind at least for cheap energy anyway - the reaction once started will tend to finish the job but the starting point is a far highter energy state - but once afew of the atoms have gone through fusions that alone should produce enough heat to set the others off but its basically done to pressure and temperature whether it will or not - most thermonuclear weapons use a fission bomb to set of the fusions reactions which can then be used to set off another fission layer which sets off another fusions layer etc etcet c - i dont believe there is alimit to how many times you can do this so really you can make a bomb as big as you want with this systme - i believe its called layer cakes or something like that

zero point energy well we knwo there is S**T loads of energy available there but have no idea how to access it

now as to reactors blowing up fusion reactors can indeed blow up - however they will probally only vaporise the reactor and if its a big one the building its in - cause the palsma will cool down fast and its not kept huge pressures thats why the temperature has to be higher in the core of a reacotr than it does in the core of a star - but if it did go off - it would realloy be a huge disater - so the little plasma in the reactor (there is never very much of the stuff) would melt the reactor perhaps abit more - now a fission reactor has the potentil to spew radioacticv dust around  aka chernobymle how ever its spelt  - however the reactor if seriorsly goes wrong it does have th potential to create a stonking great big bang like a nuke bomb cause if the cahin reaction goes out of control and the reactor shut off the the carbon rods inserted then everything clsoe by will disapear pretty quick

but to my main point or what was supposet to be my main point when i started again - cold fusion is fake - it breaks the laws of physics and not ones were are even unsure about ones pretty much clad in iron hell lets make it titainium

[Setekh]

Whoa - old topic. 4 months. But worth it.   Here's something I always wanted to know...

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
Incorrect: See Hydrogen bomb

If the damage happens in certain ways the fusion reaction may become uncontrolled

A bomb - is it a special kind of reaction? I mean - what would be the conditions required to turn a FS fighter's reactor into an explosion? Or a capship, for that matter? it seems to happen an awful lot...  

[NegspectahDek]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
Incorrect: See Hydrogen bomb

the harbinger descripition is the only thing that wasn't made up for fs1.  a modern day fusion bomb uses multiple smaller fission bombs to to set of the fusion bomb, since we dont have anything bomb sized to create the pressure and temp needed to acheieve fusion.  the real power comes from the uncontrolled fusion reaction.

the salted part is the real nice part.  salted mean the bomb has cobalt added to it to make the fallout worse than it already is.  concievably, 1 salted nuke could wipe out all life on earth just from the fallout.

proof: http://free.freespeech.org/isanw/facts/weapons.html  

[KillMeNow]

doomsday weapons are indeed poweful but i dont think the are that bad - but certainly one or two could render an entire continent lifeless except cockroaches for 100,000 or so years - and very little is needed to stopa  reactor from becoming a rapidly expanding ball of gas - ina  fission core - not enough control rods - carbon/garphite rods that are inseted with the nuclear fuel to assumb some of the neutrons and preventing a a runaway reaction - ina  fusion reactor - failure of the magnetic containment fields would destroy something like a fighters but the explosions wouldn't be as big since only th fuel in the reactor is going to fuse - once the field is breaches the gas would rapid;ly cool down and would set off the fuel but would not acually fuse it just set it alight- in space it would jsut boil off

[Martinus]

 

Originally posted by NegspectahDek:
the salted part is the real nice part.  salted mean the bomb has cobalt added to it to make the fallout worse than it already is.  concievably, 1 salted nuke could wipe out all life on earth just from the fallout.

proof: http://free.freespeech.org/isanw/facts/weapons.html  

Ouch, as Sarah Conner said in T2 anyone not wearing factor 5 million sunscreen is in for a bad day.

[The Claw]

 Hmmm... it's a debabtable point. The scientists don't seem to think Cold Fusion is chemical, but it doesn't fit in with the modern day physics, so...
 It is always worth bearing in mind, though, that some of those laws of physics may be wrong, it's mostly theoretical...
 Hmmmm. Fallout. Good game  

[Jabu]

I for one don't really understand how cold fusion could work.

I mean, fusion occurs when two atomic cores are given enough energy to overcome the atomic rejective force (or something, my translations aren't always too good) so they fuse into a larger atom. Energy = momentum = heat. So how can you fuse atoms at room temperature?

Hmm.. strong nuclear force is what binds the core together. The electric repulsion is what keeps the cores apart.

Hmm... this can't be right. My book says light cores need at least 1.6e-13 J energy. Well, suppose it's right, and the 10e8 K temperature needed to fuse hydrogen is also right. The bloody hot plasma is hard to keep away from the reactor walls. The Tokamak system works with a magnetic field in a donut.

Now I'm just rambling again. I get that way when physics are mentioned  

[The Claw]

Energy is given off when two molecules form a bond, thus forming a larger molecule.
 Cold Fusion gives off large amounts of heat, depending on the experiment. However most seem to indicate it is past the break even point.
 I'm afraid I cannot elaborate further, I must sleep.

[Jabu]

But the fusion won't happen at low temperatures. It gives off a LOT of energy (heat) to power the turbines, but the reaction itself won't happen until at about 100 000 000 Kelvin.

When atoms heat up, they move faster. If the heat is large enough, the momentum can break the repulsion, thus fusing the two atoms. The problem is that it currently takes more energy to start the reaction than the short, unsustained, reactions give off. When some decent fusion reactors are built, I'm sure the reaction's energy flow will be positive  

But cold fusion? Umm... no.

[jonskowitz]

 

Originally posted by The Claw:
Apparently Hot Fusion gives of it's energy in the form of ionising radiation waves... how the hell are you meant to turn that to electricity?

You're gonna kick yourself for not realising this one but...

Surround the Tokamek containment unit in a sphere evacuated of all gasses (except for the contained nuclear plasma.  Surround that sphere with another one and evacuate the space between them (it is important that the two spheres are electrically insulated from each other).  The inner sphere should pick up a positive ion charge as the radiation knocks electrons from thier orbits (turning it into an ANODE(+)).  The outer sphere will 'pick up' the lose electrons and pick up a negative electrical charge (turning it into a CATHODE(-)).  By connecting the two spheres with a conductor, electric current will flow between them.  This electric current may then be passed through any load device to generate work.

...TA-DAAA!  Efficiency and current generated will depend on radiation intensity (a function of amount of plasma, energy state of plasma, and distance between plasma and anode) and the surface area of the anode and cathodes.

[Shrike]

Or you can use magnetohydrodynamic couplings (whatever the hell they call them) to get energy right out of the plasma, although I think this only works if you have some sort of toroidal setup.

[Turnsky]

the first nuclear bombs particularly the hiroshima bomb used a "gun" to start the reaction, basically hit two bits of uranium together hard enough and "BOOM"

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
Or you can use magnetohydrodynamic couplings (whatever the hell they call them) to get energy right out of the plasma, although I think this only works if you have some sort of toroidal setup.

? I'm not sure if it's the same thing, but what I know about MHD is that it's used to move in a dense element (air, water) thanks to magnetics fields (and that it works damn well, so I'm still waiting someone to explain me why submarines and planes won't use that...)