Author Topic: Commands that you wished existed!  (Read 10363 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Commands that you wished existed!
I find that the only good command to give to the AI is "engage enemy", as that is the only one that keeps them alive long enough to make a difference.

 

Offline Dan1

  • 27
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
The game was deliberately designed that way and I can think of a whole lot of FREDders who would hate to see this feature added. It would allow the player to use a whole bunch of exploits that would seriously damage mission balance.

Putting the bombers in Delta wing for instance is a common trick designed to prevent the player changing the lead ship of delta into a fighter and taking the bomber for himself. Which means that if the mission had been written to allow a certain ship to survive because the player couldn't kill it and delta didn't arrive in time then that wouldn't work anymore. The player could simply bomb the ship himself and throw out the entire mission or even campaign.

The only way to stop that would be to lock Delta and above but even that is problematic. Cause if the wings are locked what is the point in being able to view them?

Making it so that mission designers could choose to make a mission where all the ships can be seen or even rearmed is one thing but retroactively applying it to all existing missions is a huge mistake.

I re-read your post about six times and I guess I don't understand since I'm not a Fredder. 

I can already change myself into a bomber as long as it's in the list on the left, I can make every single wing a bomber already if the ships are in the side scroll selecter.  Already if Delta is a bomber squadren I can select that ship and move it over any alpha ship and they swap.   (This is if I understand you correctly by saying that changing squadren ship types will change the mission dymanics.)  What i'm saying is that in 99% of anything off the top of my head I can do that already as long as I can either A) see the ship in the side selecter or B) see the ship I desire as part of another wing......  Beta all zues bombers and Alpha all hercs II's?  I just swap us and now Alpha's the bomber squadren... I guess what I'm saying is that this is already the case in most campaigns I've played.  (Unless it's like a mission where the wing is locked like you said but at that point it's moot cause it's locked and unchangeable.)

Besides like I said, it'd be great especially for some of those older campaigns where say gamma has rockeyes like I said. 

EDIT ADD:  I guess it doesn't really matter either way since it's not going to happen any time soon if ever  :doubt:
Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds!
-Best FS Campaign Theme Ever

 

Offline starfox

  • 28
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
"Ramming speed"  :lol:
*C'mon, do it !, brand-new Erinyes awaits you in the afterlife....*

On the more serious note, "Ignore target type", would be useful...
IE. Ignore Bombers/Fighters, was this already possible ?, can't remember.....
Rig:
A8N-SLI Premium
AMD 64 X2 4200+
GF 7950 GT
X-FI ExtremeMusic
HEC 550W
2 Gt RAM
Win XP

 

Offline bfobar

  • 28
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
I find that the only good command to give to the AI is "engage enemy", as that is the only one that keeps them alive long enough to make a difference.

I find that the AI often just stops flying and picks their nose when I tell them this one. I use "cover me" alot. Then I fly straight into a big formation of fighters and spray shots around a little bit. Al enemiesl then single-mindedly try to kill me while my wingmen rip them apart. It also keeps the wingmen from engaging flak canons. The only weakness is if this command is given and the ships are already in combat and not near you. They'll fly over while the enemy hoses them up the tailpipe.

 

Offline Roanoke

  • 210
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
I got another one..not really a command as much as a functionality wish.

You know when you have 3 or more wings that you are going to be starting out with? It sucks that you can't see all of the wings loadouts  :hopping:

  Well I wish you could look at the loadout for every wing.  Only being able to see Alpha, Beta, and Delta's while Gamma is the primary bomber wing is annoying. And it's even more annoying when Command's like "Sending Gamma to help take down this cruiser/destroyer" and you see them warp in with Ursa's and then fire lots of rockeyes.  I'm just like..you've got to be kidding me.

So what I want is like a sidecroll selector for the different wings cause only being limited to seeing 3 (4 ? I don't remember what the max is on the ship select) sucks and would like to view them all.

The game was deliberately designed that way and I can think of a whole lot of FREDders who would hate to see this feature added. It would allow the player to use a whole bunch of exploits that would seriously damage mission balance.

Putting the bombers in Delta wing for instance is a common trick designed to prevent the player changing the lead ship of delta into a fighter and taking the bomber for himself. Which means that if the mission had been written to allow a certain ship to survive because the player couldn't kill it and delta didn't arrive in time then that wouldn't work anymore. The player could simply bomb the ship himself and throw out the entire mission or even campaign.

The only way to stop that would be to lock Delta and above but even that is problematic. Cause if the wings are locked what is the point in being able to view them?

Making it so that mission designers could choose to make a mission where all the ships can be seen or even rearmed is one thing but retroactively applying it to all existing missions is a huge mistake.

That had never occured to me when I was FREDding

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
I re-read your post about six times and I guess I don't understand since I'm not a Fredder. 


I'll try to explain it to you in simpler terms then :)

Quote
I can already change myself into a bomber as long as it's in the list on the left, I can make every single wing a bomber already if the ships are in the side scroll selecter. 


Ah. But who do you think put the bomber in the scroller at the side? That's right it's the mission designer. Any time you play a mission you should only have access to the ships the mission designer thought were appropriate for the mission. If you have bombers available on the side scroller it's precisely because the mission designer thinks that it is appropriate to allow you to fly a bomber. If you play FS2 again you'll notice that in the vast majority of mission you do not have any bombers listed. This isn't an accident. It's a somewhat subtle piece of mission design. The mission designer is very subtly telling you that it is okay to fly a bomber in this mission even if you are assigned a fighter by default.

If the mission designer does not what you to fly a bomber in a mission that does have bombers he will do one of two things. He'll either put the bombers in beta or gamma wing and lock them (which means you can't alter their weaponary in the ships loadout, or he'll put them in some wing other than Alpha, Beta or Gamma where you can't see them at all. Either way the bomber will not appear in the ship choices at the side of the screen.

By doing this the mission designer has effectively prevented you from flying a bomber. Most FREDders I've seen actually prefer to put the bombers in Delta wing or another wing you can't even see if the player is not meant to have access to a bomber. If you replay FS2 you'll see that this is actually a lot more common than you might have noticed. It's certainly very common in user-created mission. I never lock Beta or Gamma wing if I can help it. If a ship appears in the loadout screen the player should be able to edit it unless there is a very good reason. I doubt I'm the only FREDder who feels that way somehow. It's certanly the way :v: used to prevent you from flying a bomber in several missions.

Now the problem is that if you allow Delta and other wings to appear in the loadout you will now be able to disregard this mechanism for preventing the player from flying a bomber.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline bfobar

  • 28
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
with what karajorma said, it would kind of ruin the suprise of a mission if the briefing said "Today's an easy one, scout the asteroid field and see if that old cargo depot is still usable." and when you looked, there were 10 bomber wings with full helios loadouts for the mission. It would kind of make the suprise of the 3 enemy destroyers jumping in go away.

Mission loadouts should be appropriate for the mission briefing, and the status of the wing alpha1 is assigned to. (I.E, "no you can't fly the aries on the interceptor mission against the broken down cruiser, you just got transferred to this wing at podunk station. I don't care what rumors you heard over the galactic news network about shivan doom fleets. Your pilots pay won't buy a new aries if you break it.")

 

Offline Dan1

  • 27
Re: Commands that you wished existed!

Ah. But who do you think put the bomber in the scroller at the side? That's right it's the mission designer. Any time you play a mission you should only have access to the ships the mission designer thought were appropriate for the mission. If you have bombers available on the side scroller it's precisely because the mission designer thinks that it is appropriate to allow you to fly a bomber. If you play FS2 again you'll notice that in the vast majority of mission you do not have any bombers listed. This isn't an accident. It's a somewhat subtle piece of mission design. The mission designer is very subtly telling you that it is okay to fly a bomber in this mission even if you are assigned a fighter by default.

If the mission designer does not what you to fly a bomber in a mission that does have bombers he will do one of two things. He'll either put the bombers in beta or gamma wing and lock them (which means you can't alter their weaponary in the ships loadout, or he'll put them in some wing other than Alpha, Beta or Gamma where you can't see them at all. Either way the bomber will not appear in the ship choices at the side of the screen.

By doing this the mission designer has effectively prevented you from flying a bomber. Most FREDders I've seen actually prefer to put the bombers in Delta wing or another wing you can't even see if the player is not meant to have access to a bomber. If you replay FS2 you'll see that this is actually a lot more common than you might have noticed. It's certainly very common in user-created mission. I never lock Beta or Gamma wing if I can help it. If a ship appears in the loadout screen the player should be able to edit it unless there is a very good reason. I doubt I'm the only FREDder who feels that way somehow. It's certanly the way :v: used to prevent you from flying a bomber in several missions.

Now the problem is that if you allow Delta and other wings to appear in the loadout you will now be able to disregard this mechanism for preventing the player from flying a bomber.

Everything you wrote was not lost on me (I guess the "exploit thing" was what I was not understanding,) I should've been more clear.  But what I'm saying is that I dont' mind about bomber wings or changnig myself to a bomber etc, BUT it would be helpful if I KNOW that I am going in hot against a destroyer(OK guys let's we're going too kill it for sure this time) and if the 3 wings I see on the selector screen aren't bombers than it's the ones that I can't see that are (bombers.)  And then Epsilon/ Gamma come in as bombers and they start firing rockeyes it just makes it that much more annoying.

Also as you progress through FS2 you have a choice of many different types of fighters/ bombers (which I believe is why you don't get all the choices in the original FS2 campaign right at the start, you have to earn it like bfobar meant.)  But near the end you have a choice of many different bomber/fighter combos.  Just having the options of many different fighters doesn't mean anything, (if I give you the option of a spoon or fork in the morning to eat your lunch that doesn't make anything because that event will happen in the future and you don't know what to expect so you base your decision on the best intel you have at the time)  just like giving the option of a fighter or bomber before the mission doesn't mean anything.  Unless you've played it before anything can happen,  you might have capships incomming or you might have fries for lunch (meaning that neither the spoon/fork does any good unless you're like this one guy I know that eats his fries with a fork one at a time)  For example:

Step 1) Mission breifing..:  Unknown space, escort awacks, expect attack.  (What does this really tell me about what to expect enemywise?  nothing)
Step 2) Look at ship selector and see every ship in the game available in set of 5 or whatever standard is (This tellls me nothing ......just because I have many options this gives nothing away....now limiting options to say oh bombers and that's it will though)
Step 3)  Choose weapons and hit start.



But like I said, I wish this thing existed but it probably won't.

And as far as balance goes, when I play a campaign if it's too easy I bump up the difficulty, very rarely do I beat something on "Very Hard"
Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds!
-Best FS Campaign Theme Ever

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
It's not supposed to tell you that much. Otherwise, why would you play the mission?

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
  • 210
  • Pilot of the GTVA
    • EVO
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
What I wanna know is where are all those 60 fighter/bomber wings or so when they're under attack?  They just lounging around going "eh alpha and beta can handle it back to poker night"
Seconded.
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
M E M O R I A L :: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46987.msg957350.html#new

"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 

Offline Dan1

  • 27
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
It's not supposed to tell you that much. Otherwise, why would you play the mission?

Exactly, and providing more choices for ships and weapons won't change that in any way.
Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds!
-Best FS Campaign Theme Ever

 
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
"Do a U-Turn and fly in the opposite direction!!!!"

I would like to be able to order a cap-ship around, just for the fun of it.
Eddie Guerrero R.I.P. 1967-2005

 

Offline bfobar

  • 28
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
It's not supposed to tell you that much. Otherwise, why would you play the mission?

Exactly, and providing more choices for ships and weapons won't change that in any way.

I think your complaint is valid but is better solved by the original mission designer putting a better thought in to giving you an appropriate and believable loadout to start the mission with. Really when I go to the ship select wing, I think the only reason I should change anything is if I just really want to fly a specific ship or use a specific gun because I really like it. The mission should already have the most sensible setup in there for you.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

  • 212
  • Snoop Junkie
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
I would like to be able to order a cap-ship around, just for the fun of it.
It can be done.  You have to create an objecttypes.tbl file and add the desired player orders to the class in question.
The Trivial Psychic Strikes Again!

 
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
Oooooh!  Tell me more!

Oh, and I would like to spawn ships in-game as well.  Any clues on that?
Eddie Guerrero R.I.P. 1967-2005

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
  • 210
  • Pilot of the GTVA
    • EVO
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
 "What commands you wish existed." = "**** off and Die!" (Which wouldent be too hard for the AI to do, as they love that one already!)
:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
M E M O R I A L :: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46987.msg957350.html#new

"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

  • 212
  • Snoop Junkie
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
Oooooh!  Tell me more!
Most of the discussion was going on in THIS thread.  The code itself is included in CVS right now, so I wouldn't suggest using any of the builds linked in that thread, but they do include base copies of shiptypes.tbl, so you have something to start with.  However, shiptypes.tbl has now been renamed to objecttypes.tbl, so be sure to properly rename the file if you plan on using it.  I suggest you review the thread carefully before trying to alter the properties.

Quote
Oh, and I would like to spawn ships in-game as well.  Any clues on that?
Not exactly sure what you mean by this.
The Trivial Psychic Strikes Again!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
Oh, and I would like to spawn ships in-game as well.  Any clues on that?

Ship-create SEXP. Download the bigger bearbaiting mission I posted earlier on this thread and look at the first two events for an example of how to use it :)
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
It's not supposed to tell you that much. Otherwise, why would you play the mission?

Exactly, and providing more choices for ships and weapons won't change that in any way.

But what it seems like you're suggesting is that you want to know more about the mission from the ships available to fly it in. So yes, it will change balance. You're saying, if I understand correctly from you're wording, that you want to be able to look at the selection list and see the types of ships present for your side, to know what you're going against. Which...yes, does change your knowledge of the mission before it occurs.

  

Offline ShivanSpS

  • 210
Re: Commands that you wished existed!
Well a few Commands that I ever wanted...

1) Attack Fighters Only
2) Attack Bombers Only
3) Cover Wing
4) Cover Wing and ignore big attakers. (Just cover them from fighter and Bombers not Cruicers, etc)
5) Cover my target and ignore big attakers
6) Ignore any big target. (auto-ignore Cruicers, destroyers, etc)
7) Cover my target from asteroids.
8) Cover my target from Fighters only.
9) Cover my target from Bombers only.
10) Attack Wing (someone already say it)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 09:28:57 am by ShivanSpS »