Author Topic: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)  (Read 2254 times)

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Offline Goober5000

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
Nah, I don't go into any sort of OCD-induced fits over poor spelling or grammar, if that's what you're thinking. :) And I don't mind 1337-speak or AOL-kiddie chat abbreviations; I use both of those myself on occasion.

What I'm trying to draw attention to, if I had to spell it out (no pun intended), is the poor quality of education nowadays and the fact that very few people self-educate themselves anymore.  It used to be that you taught yourself just as much, if not more, as you learned in school.  Nowadays hardly anybody teaches himself anything, and self-discipline is practically a lost art.  Witness the preponderance of automatic spell-checking substituted for actual proofreading.

One of the easiest and quickest ways to highlight this is by calling attention to grammar and spelling. :) Sometimes I do this to the point of fastidiousness, and sometimes I don't do it at all.  It generally depends on the thread.

 
Re: Soviet science at its finest.
Quote from: Goober5000
blah blah blah elitist blather blah blah blah

As long as we're going to be prescriptivists, it's wise to at least be "correct".  Let's take a glance at the original sentence, shall we?

Quote
It's one of those words that just suck.

The above, even to the most thorough prescriptivist's eye, is correct.

It = Subject
"is" = Verb, truncated into the contraction "it's"
one = Object
of those words = prepositional phrase describing object
that just suck = restrictive clause, describing previous prepositional phrase.

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As a general rule of thumb, when in doubt, remove phrases that don't change the core meaning.

Let's do that, shall we?
Quote
It's one of those words that just suck.

We'll untruncate the contraction.

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It is one of those words that just suck.

We'll take out the "just", as it's an adjective adding precious little meaning to the sentence.

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It is one of those words that suck.

That's the most this sentence can be simplified without drastically altering its meaning.  Were the adverbial phrase "of those words" removed, the subordinate restrictive clause "that suck" would be modifying the original phrase "it is one", in which case the verb "suck" would need to agree with its (new) subject "it".

That's not the case.

You're also mistaken in labelling "that" as a relative pronoun.  In this case, the word is working as a conjunction, joining the verb "suck" to the adverbial phrase "of those words".

I think I can illustrate this in a way that's more transparent.  Rather than stripping the sentence down, let's reorganize it.  Adverbial phrases are, after all, very mobile, and can often be moved without changing the inherent meaning of a sentence.  By changing the order of clauses, we can more clearly see the meaning of each.
Quote
Of those words that just suck, it's one .

This retains a nearly identical meaning, but is certainly phrased in a less than ideal fashion.  It is clearly distinct from the way in which you were mis-correcting the sentence, however.  Let's see what happens when we dislocate its adverbial phrase in your version.

Quote
Of those words, it's one that just sucks."

This clearly expresses an idea of "it" being distinct from the super-set "those words", as one that sucks.  That's clearly not the original intent of the sentence.  The original author was trying to point out that the "it" is a member of the group "those words that just suck".  Thus, the original sentence was, as previously stated, entirely correct.

All of that being said, don't correct people's grammar.  Your grammarian certificate has been revoked.  You're not trying to teach them anything.  You're trying to prove that you're better than them, and no one likes that.  Rules of grammar are highly plastic, and anyone who believes in their strict application is surely deluded, and almost entirely ignorant of the nature of the english language.

Thank you and good night.

 

Offline bfobar

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)
...and I thought quantum theory II was hard!

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
Actually, Spectre, my original critique was correct.  But you've brought an interesting new flavor to the debate, one that deliciously highlights the ambiguous nature of the English language. :)

I'll try to explain it in mathematical form, using parentheses for prioritization.  There are actually two (and perhaps more) ways to read the sentence:

Quote
(It is one of those words) that just sucks.

Quote
It is one of those (words that just suck).

So both sucks and suck are correct, but I was too focused on the first meaning to realize the existence of the second.  Thank you, Spectre, for pointing it out. :)

 
Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)
 :p

 

Offline Fragrag

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)
To entire thread:

What now the what now :confused:
"On this day...my pants are filled....with joy" -Singh, doing the pants game
My blog, with 'gorillarape' in the url, who wouldn't visit it?!

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
....Although the first 'blah' from Goober in your quote really ought to have had a capital letter, considering it was the start of a sentence.....

:nervous:

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
y r u arging on gramr on teh intrenet like pure mad noobs?!1111(etc)

  

Offline Flipside

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
I always thought my Grandma was the Inquisition.....

 

Offline vyper

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
Pure mad mental munters...
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
Pure mad mental munters...

Haw, ya rocket!  Bolt afore a launch ye!

 
Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)
Quote
....Although the first 'blah' from Goober in your quote really ought to have had a capital letter, considering it was the start of a sentence.....

Aww crap, I messed up the punctuation too...  And there's, like, no subject, object or verb.  Holy moly!  There doesn't appear to be a sentence there at all!  What am I going to do!?!?

OH NOOOOOOES!!!

The correct version should read:
Quote
-=!|bLaH bLaH bLaH ELITIST MALARKY BlAh BlAh BlAh|!=-

Sorry, my mistake.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001843.html

 

Offline Grug

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet t
When in doubt, read the manual / instructions / wikipedia.

Quote
The apostrophe in it's marks a contraction of it is or it has. The possessive its has no apostrophe. Many find this confusing. It might help to remember that there is no apostrophe in any of his, hers, its, whose (see below), ours, yours, or theirs. Other pronouns do take a possessive apostrophe: one's, everybody's (along with everyone's, anybody's, and similar), somebody else's, etc.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: A Grammar Inquisition (split from the Soviet thread)
The correct version should read:
Quote
-=!|bLaH bLaH bLaH ELITIST MALARKY BlAh BlAh BlAh|!=-

Sorry, my mistake.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001843.html
Well I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm only going to live once, I'm going to indulge in as much elitism as my heart desires.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Roanoke

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Re: Soviet science at its finest.
"Of those words, it's one that just sucks."

[/quote


"It's one of those words. It just sucks."

Wham! Bam!