Author Topic: Reid; change 'rules of war'  (Read 1837 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Reid; change 'rules of war'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4875694.stm
[q]The British Defence Secretary John Reid has called for changes in the rules of war in the face of "a deliberate regression towards barbaric terrorism by our opponents."[/q]

Y'know, cos we only have a few hundred tanks, bombers, nuclear missiles and thousands of troops, so obviously we need the power to beat the **** out of protesting civillians in Basra.  Presumably Al-Queda would like to change the rules of war themselves, too.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Actually I agree with the principle if not the intent. The Geneva Convention should be updated to make it absolutely certain that countries like the US can't weasle out of it with Orwellian newspeak like "Unlawful Combatants" and "Rendition"

The current treaty does actually contain provisions to prevent that kind of **** but I'd be happy to see a better version which makes it crystal clear that if someone is not a prisoner of war they are to be dealt with via the legal justice system.

Basically make it crystal clear that someone is either a PoW or a criminal and that there is absolutely NO shady legal ground in between.


Of course the current US administration would attempt to water down any such treaty but can you imagine the political ramifications of the Land of the Free being the only country NOT to sign the second Geneva Convention? :D It would actually give the rest of the world an enormous cudgel to hold over the head of the Coalition of the Willing :D
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline vyper

  • 210
  • The Sexy Scotsman
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
I swear that man is living proof of why socialists should not be allowed into government.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline an0n

  • Banned again
  • 211
  • Emo Hunter
    • http://nodewar.penguinbomb.com/forum
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Way I see it: **** 'em.

We built an Empire by butchering civiliians, so anything that leads back to the glory days is okay by me.
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
"an0n's right. He's crazy, an asshole, not to be trusted, rarely to be taken seriously, and never to be allowed near your mother. But, he's got a knack for being right. In the worst possible way he can find." ---- Yuppygoat
~-=~!@!~=-~ : Nodewar.com

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
I swear that man is living proof of why socialists should not be allowed into government.

You think anyone left in the Labour party is a socialist?!

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Actually, any new set of conventions would certainly offer more protection to such folks then they have currently.

You have to realize that the US is being much more lenient then is mandated by the Geneva Conventions. The Conventions mandate that anyone engaging in armed resistance and, essentially, not wearing a uniform, can be stood against the nearest wall and shot. Without recourse.

That's obviously not being done on any large scale. But it is considered perfectly acceptable under international law.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Actually, any new set of conventions would certainly offer more protection to such folks then they have currently.

You have to realize that the US is being much more lenient then is mandated by the Geneva Conventions. The Conventions mandate that anyone engaging in armed resistance and, essentially, not wearing a uniform, can be stood against the nearest wall and shot. Without recourse.

That's obviously not being done on any large scale. But it is considered perfectly acceptable under international law.

Show me where it says that, because I've read the GCs something like 10 or 12 times now as a result of these threads, and there's nothing like that in it/them I have seen.  (also going by the ICRC websites stuff on the issue)

 Even non-military terrorists (and, note, you don't need a uniform to be covered by the GC, due to things like resistance groups ala those in occupied europe during WW2) are expressly covered by civil law (for example, terrorists captured in Afghanistan should be charged & held under Afghani law IIRC) and humanitarian law; the latter of which would expressly forbid both torture and summary execution.  Even more crucially, both the Geneva conventions and (in this specific case) the US military officers handbook require that any prisoner even claiming POW status requires a fair and competent tribunal to determine their status in that respect.

(for example;

[q]A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. [/q]

Would apply to Iraqi or Afghani insurgents targeting coalition forces and the Iraqi army, albeit not of course those who are bombing civillians or mosques)

The US cannot just line up anyone against the wall and shoot them under international law, because there is a massive potential for abuse - inherent abuse in a heated combat zone - in giving any such permission.

The 4th Geneva convention (Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War) also says;
[q]Article 3, relating to the legal actions allowed for military forces engaged in fighting, i.e. the US Army

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

[/q]

Ttaking no active part would apply to any captured individual, even a terrorist; it's an obvious distinction because those taking part tend to be shooting at you, and sadly banning war is outside the Conventions' remit.  Also, this reiterates that the GC covers the treatment of all individuals, not just 'legal' regular military combatants.  There is not, in actuality a 3rd 'illegal combatant state';

[q]  International Committee of the Red Cross, Commentary: IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Geneva: 1958), p. 51 (emphasis in original). The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, charged with prosecuting war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the recent conflicts in the Balkans, has explicitly affirmed this principle in a 1998 judgment, stating that "there is no gap between the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. If an individual is not entitled to the protection of the Third Convention as a prisoner of war ... he or she necessarily falls within the ambit of [the Fourth Convention], provided that its article 4 requirements [defining a protected person] are satisfied." Celebici Judgment, para. 271 (1998).[/q]

Finally, of course, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that forbids torture, etc, also prevents arbitrary removal of those rights.  The Us breaks a vast amount of these in Gitmo and in other 'anti terror' actions, such as; (4 would apply if the US brings in execution in the camp, as appears likely with the moves to re-allow execution for military trials/court martials, 8-11 apply to detnetion & extraordinary rendition, as do related movement rights)
[q]
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person.

Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11

   1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
   2. No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 13

   1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
   2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 29

   1. Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
   2. In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
   3. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
[/q]

So there is no such thing as an 'unlawful combatant' under the Geneva convention, and all those detainees are covered as POWs until a fair and competent tribunal is able to assess each individual case; even post that, they are entitled to the civillian protections under the 4th convention (note; 3rd relates to POW treatment, 4th to civvies), and always protected by the various convnetions upon human rights.  For the Geneva convention not to apply, the detentions need to be not during a war; in which case not only can the Bush government not claim any special wartime powers, but it also loses any justification for detention it had, as it moves from detention of POWs to outright kidnapping and hostage taking.  There would, I imagine, already be an existing major issue with this regarding the rendition of people from territories the US is not at war with (such as from Egypt, Italy, UK), which is probably why they're moved to either 'black' bases such as the rumoured (IIRC) floating cargo-ship prison that once was at Diego Garcia, or to ally countries with less than a... firm view on human rights like Saudi Arabia or even (until the sword rattling towards them began and the US Gov realised it probably would be bad PR to keep doing it) Syria.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 04:56:26 am by aldo_14 »

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Edit: Fiiiiiine.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Is it just me, or do three of those sound somewhat familiar?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 05:00:46 am by Mefustae »

  

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
None of that 'pwned' stuff please, it just makes people feel defensive and treat the thread as if this is some sort of competition.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Were these people bought up on post-war comic books, where all the enemies were pure evil and when the good guy smiled his teeth went 'ting!'?

The Japanese tortured prisoners, because, according to their culture that was what you did to your enemies, but the allies tortured prisoners too (both unofficially and officially)

Hitler invaded most of Europe as a 'pre-emptive measure'.

He does, I assume, realise that if he reduces the contents of the Geneva convention, he's not just giving himself an excuse to meet terrorists on what he considers 'their own level', he's also taking away the ability to accuse them of being barbaric?


 

Offline Grug

  • 211
  • From the ashes...
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
It's difficult to understand and see why they are really doing this. Too me, we are in no more threat from terrorism than before 11th of September, other than the fact the anger generated from our invasion of Iraq.

To me, it has all been blown completely out of proportion simply for the use of politicians to propel themselves onto the stadium. That makes me more sick than the actual events on 11th of September.

Pure and simple fear mongering. It disgusts me to the core. Especially for the fact that excuses are made to allow for the things mentioned above. Allowing ourselves to de-evolve back to our former barbaric civilisation ways, in a world where it is not necessary. Blatent stupidity. I just don't get it. =/

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
I actually don't think we ever evolved past our barbaric civilizational ways, fear-mongering has been around since the dawn of time. I don't really know (or want to know) how various stupid decisions help some of the simpley terrible people who manage to get into power.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
You're not reading the part that's applied under field conditions. Specifically the one about spies. You cannot merely claim to be military, you must have some form of proof. It doesn't necessarily have to be particularly good proof, but some kind of proof. Dogtags, ID, something.

The Geneva, and the later Hague (which the US is not a signatory of but generally obeys anyways), Conventions are meant to cover combat between nation-states. They have no bearing upon internal conflicts, like rebellions. They do not protect someone in armed resistance against their country's government. And they do not offer protection to resistance groups such as those of WWII. You're ignoring the cavet.

Quote
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly. and respect the laws and customs of war.

That's not what's happening, is it now? By very definition insurgents or resistance groups do not bear arms openly.

I agree that Guantanmo is a joke, one in particularly bad taste. That was never my point. My point is that international law is not so...forgiving, as you would believe. The world is harsh place.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
You're not reading the part that's applied under field conditions. Specifically the one about spies. You cannot merely claim to be military, you must have some form of proof. It doesn't necessarily have to be particularly good proof, but some kind of proof. Dogtags, ID, something.

Nope.  That is for a fair and competent tribunal to determine - the capturing power cannot arbitrarily determine non-POW status if the captured individual asserts a claim to be a POW.  We also have other humanitarian law.

I'd note Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1), article 75
[q]
Article 75.-Fundamental guarantees
1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:

(a) Violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:

(i) Murder;

(ii) Torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;

( iii ) Corporal punishment ; and

(iv) Mutilation;

(b) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;

(c) The taking of hostages;

(d) Collective punishments; and

(e) Threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

3. Any person arrested, detained or interned for actions related to the armed conflict shall be informed promptly, in a language he understands, of the reasons why these measures have been taken. Except in cases of arrest or detention for penal offences, such persons shall be released with the minimum delay possible and in any event as soon as the circumstances justifying the arrest, detention or internment have ceased to exist.

4. No sentence may be passed and no penalty may be executed on a person found guilty of a penal offence related to the armed conflict except pursuant to a conviction pronounced by an impartial and regularly constituted court respecting the generally recognized principles of regular judicial procedure, which include the following:

(a) The procedure shall provide for an accused to be informed without delay of the particulars of the offence alleged against him and shall afford the accused before and during his trial all necessary rights and means of defence;

(b) No one shall be convicted of an offence except on the basis of individual penal responsibility;

(c) No one shall be accused or convicted of a criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under the national or international law to which he was subject at the time when it was committed; nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than that which was applicable at the time when the criminal offence was committed; if, after the commission of the offence, provision is made by law for the imposition of a lighter penalty, the offender shall benefit thereby;

(d) Anyone charged with an offence is presumed innocent until proved guilt according to law;

(e) Anyone charged with an offence shall have the right to be tried in his presence;

(f) No one shall be compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt;

(g) Anyone charged with an offence shall have the right to examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;

(h) No one shall be prosecuted or punished by the same Party for an offence in respect of which a final judgement acquitting or convicting that person has been previously pronounced under the same law and judicial procedure;

(i) Anyone prosecuted for an offence shall have the right to have the judgement pronounced publicly; and

(i) A convicted person shall be advised on conviction of his judicial and other remedies and of the time-limits within which they may be exercised.

5. Women whose liberty has been restricted for reasons related to the armed conflict shall be held in quarters separated from men's quarters. They shall be under the immediate supervision of women. Nevertheless, in cases

where families are detained or interned, they shall, whenever possible, be held in the same place and accommodated as family units.

6. Persons who are arrested, detained or interned for reasons related to the armed conflict shall enjoy the protection provided by this Article until their final release, repatriation or re-establishment, even after the end of the armed conflict.

7. In order to avoid any doubt concerning the prosecution and trial of persons accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity, the following principles shall apply:

(a) Persons who are accused of such crimes should be submitted for the purpose of prosecution and trial in accordance with the applicable rules of international law; and

(b) Any such persons who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or this Protocol shall be accorded the treatment provided by this Article, whether or not the crimes of which they are accused constitute grave breaches of the Conventions or of this Protocol.

8. No provision of this Article may be construed as limiting or infringing any other more favourable provision granting greater protection, under any applicable rules of international law, to persons covered by paragraph 1.
[/q]

This covers the rights of those not protected under article 3 (POW) or 4 (civillians) under the GCs.  Note the rules against torture, the removal of other human rights under other international conventions, the requirement for innocent until proven guilty & the right to a fair trial for key things.

Quote
The Geneva, and the later Hague (which the US is not a signatory of but generally obeys anyways), Conventions are meant to cover combat between nation-states. They have no bearing upon internal conflicts, like rebellions. They do not protect someone in armed resistance against their country's government. And they do not offer protection to resistance groups such as those of WWII. You're ignoring the cavet.

The US declared this a war, firstly.  Invading another sovereign country generally is, and if the US was to renounce it as a war to divest itself of GC obligations (but not those of human rights conventions) then the government would lose its wartime powers and it would mean the US was performing unquestionably criminal acts such as abduction of foreign citizens.  AFAIK there is no convention or law allowing the detention and extradiction by force of individuals to their non-resident country without the consent of the rulers of their resident country and usually involving recource by law to challenge extradiction.

Additionally the 6) quote specifically covers that issue.

Quote
That's not what's happening, is it now? By very definition insurgents or resistance groups do not bear arms openly.

They do in combat.  I made a very specific mention of insurgent guerilla/paramilitary groups vs terrorists.  The detention of unarmed civillians as insurgents would be contrary to the rules of law, because they'd be classed as civillians and treated under civil law; to re-emphasise, you can't just detain someone as a terrorist indefinately without trial, etc, ala Gitmo because there are rules to cover this type of activity in both peace and wartime cases.   And again the US has failed in its obligations to determine POW or otherwise status of the detainees anyways, alongside other international law breaches like using torture for interrogation and arbitrary detention without trial.

Quote
I agree that Guantanmo is a joke, one in particularly bad taste. That was never my point. My point is that international law is not so...forgiving, as you would believe. The world is harsh place.

Forgiving?  forgiving!  Forgiving would be not covering these abuses, don't you think?

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
Quote
That's not what's happening, is it now? By very definition insurgents or resistance groups do not bear arms openly.

They do in combat.  I made a very specific mention of insurgent guerilla/paramilitary groups vs terrorists.  The detention of unarmed civillians as insurgents would be contrary to the rules of law, because they'd be classed as civillians and treated under civil law; to re-emphasise, you can't just detain someone as a terrorist indefinately without trial, etc, ala Gitmo because there are rules to cover this type of activity in both peace and wartime cases.   And again the US has failed in its obligations to determine POW or otherwise status of the detainees anyways, alongside other international law breaches like using torture for interrogation and arbitrary detention without trial.

No, they don't. Last I checked, bombs hidden under a man's jacket don't count as openly-borne arms. Insurgents in Iraq hardly respect the rules of war at all. Suicide bombings often kill dozens (if not hundreds) of civilians along with Coalition or Iraqi soldiers and police officers. American POWs are beheaded by the insurgency when they are captured, which I would say is just a little bit more up the ladder than Gitmo, now isn't it? If anything, the insurgents should be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva Convention.

Read Article 75, Section 2 again.
Quote
(a) Violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:

(i) Murder;

(ii) Torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;

( iii ) Corporal punishment ; and

(iv) Mutilation;

(b) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;

(c) The taking of hostages;

(d) Collective punishments; and

(e) Threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

Name one thing in there that the insurgency has not performed on civilians or military forces in Iraq in some form or another. Prisoners at Gitmo, however "cruelly treated," are not mutilated. Coalition soldiers don't take hostages or use human shields.

Quote
The US declared this a war, firstly.  Invading another sovereign country generally is, and if the US was to renounce it as a war to divest itself of GC obligations (but not those of human rights conventions) then the government would lose its wartime powers and it would mean the US was performing unquestionably criminal acts such as abduction of foreign citizens.

Hardly. The current Iraqi government doesn't support the insurgency in the least, qualifying the rebels as criminals and traitors in the legal eyes of the Iraqi government. The US exists currently exists in Iraq as a stabilizing force, and, until the police and military forces of the Iraqi government are stable enough to deal with the insurgency on their own, the US must stand up and help the government deal with this insurgency.

Until the insurgents can supply their captors with name, rank, and serial number, GC doesn't apply to them. I agree that the US should obey the rules of the GC, but when obeying said rules jeapordizes American lives, then it should be a void argument: when an insurgent surrenders and approaches American troops only to blow himself and the troops up, the rules of war have to change.

Like ngtm1r said, the GC applies to warring nations ala the Allies and Axis powers in WWII. It doesn't apply to rebels who are at best no better than criminals.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
See, I would disagree that there is a clear line between the Iraqi government, the insurgency and various private militias. They are all the same thing at different times and depending on the situation. Iraqi government troops have enagaged in battles with American soldiers, various militias have and are fighting each other, and the insurgency is made up of hundreds of groups, all of who swear alliegance to some particular faction or code. And they fight with or against other groups based on shifting loyalties and alliances.

Also, some of the worst cases of abduction, torture and so on have been performed by Iraqi soldiers and police who are using their authority to settle tribal or sectarian scores.

It's not like Group A fights Group B. It's more like Group A fights group B, until they ally to fight group C, who is friends with Group D. But Group D shares ties with Group B, who they refuse fight. Meanwhile, Group E is going after Groups C and B, until Group D blows up one of their convoys, at which point they support Group A against Group D, who has Group C backing them up against Group A and Group B.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
No, they don't. Last I checked, bombs hidden under a man's jacket don't count as openly-borne arms. Insurgents in Iraq hardly respect the rules of war at all. Suicide bombings often kill dozens (if not hundreds) of civilians along with Coalition or Iraqi soldiers and police officers. American POWs are beheaded by the insurgency when they are captured, which I would say is just a little bit more up the ladder than Gitmo, now isn't it? If anything, the insurgents should be tried as war criminals for violating the Geneva Convention.

For the 3rd time, I already stated that those insurgents beheading and kidnapping people would be counted as civillian criminals under the GCs.  Yes, they should be tried as war criminals, but to do so they would still be protected as either POWs or civillians (I'm not sure if what is technically a civillian can be tried for a war crime); they are not exempted from protection.

Name one thing in there that the insurgency has not performed on civilians or military forces in Iraq in some form or another. Prisoners at Gitmo, however "cruelly treated," are not mutilated. Coalition soldiers don't take hostages or use human shields.

THe UN has already declared that torture takes place at Guantanamo bay, and it has been documented elsewhere.  This is aside from other violations.  Don't play 'whose worse' in an attempt to justify one crime slightly less than the other - criticising flagrant international human rights abuses at Guantanamo bay is not justifying terrorism and murder, and you damn well know that.

Hardly. The current Iraqi government doesn't support the insurgency in the least, qualifying the rebels as criminals and traitors in the legal eyes of the Iraqi government. The US exists currently exists in Iraq as a stabilizing force, and, until the police and military forces of the Iraqi government are stable enough to deal with the insurgency on their own, the US must stand up and help the government deal with this insurgency.

Firstly, the US declared it a war on terror, ergo there is an issue within that context as to whether it can ever be revoked as a state.  Secondly,  the US did invade Afghanistan and Iraq, and if the ousted government still has elements fighting, it is still resistance and an ongoing war.  So long as a third nation remains in these countries it cannot be simply a domestic matter in any case and the issue of who is in command remains peritinent ala Vichy France.  Finally, even if the Geneva Convention was not applied, there is still international law, and still the POW issue regarding those captured in Afghanistan by either the US or (for bounties) the Northern Alliance.

Until the insurgents can supply their captors with name, rank, and serial number, GC doesn't apply to them. I agree that the US should obey the rules of the GC, but when obeying said rules jeapordizes American lives, then it should be a void argument: when an insurgent surrenders and approaches American troops only to blow himself and the troops up, the rules of war have to change.

Arguably abuse seen in the likes of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo has had a massive role in provoking violence towards both US soldiers and civillians when captured.  Or do you forget the orange jumpsuits seen in the beheading videos?  Are you suggesting it is right and proper for the US to murder any person - any civillian - who approaches them because they might be a suicide bomber?  Blow up every car because it might be a bomb? Will that make the Iraqi people any less inclined to revolt against them?

Like ngtm1r said, the GC applies to warring nations ala the Allies and Axis powers in WWII. It doesn't apply to rebels who are at best no better than criminals.

Let's not forget WWII had huge numbers of resistance groups in pretty much every occupied territory, not to forget the likes of the preceding Spanish Civil War.

It includes provisions on article 4 for militias or resistance groups.  Terrorist organisations / terrorists are not protected as POWs (although if they claim to be a POW they are still entitled to have their status determined by a fair tribunal) but are not exempted from the protections of either the GC as civillians, or the likes of the UN Convention of Human Rights / Against Torture, and would simply be charged under either war crime laws or existing civillian (Iraqi) law.  At no point in any convention is there ever permission of the likes of torture, arbitrary detention, etc.

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
well they are the people we are at war with, they are the opposeing force, they can't be civilians.

this is exactly the point of the item that started this thread the genevia conventions don't work here.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Re: Reid; change 'rules of war'
well they are the people we are at war with, they are the opposeing force, they can't be civilians.

this is exactly the point of the item that started this thread the genevia conventions don't work here.

Which is wrong.  The Geneva Conventions were created to establish rules of conflict to protect both civillians and combatants from warfare and treatment that was unconscionable, such as the forced enslavement of Allied POWs by Japan or the placement of Jews in concentration camps.  If the opposing force is to be defined as, indeed, a military force and hence eligable for POW status, the Geneva Convention does not prohibit prosecution for war crimes but simply acts which violate existing international law.  The question was always 'do these people in camps like Guantanamo bay have rights relating to arbitrary detention and torture?', and the answer has always been very clear that they are protected by not just the GC but other treaties, and there is no exemption to that regardless of how horrific a crime they may have been accused of.