Author Topic: Shivan Intention Theories  (Read 13482 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
I suppose I should have mentioned when I first said it wouldn't compile that I wasn't trying to start a discussion over a throwaway line but I mistakenly assumed that no one would really care enough to take it any further :D
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Offline ]C[rusader

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Pre-Ancients' Era
The region of reality known as subspace has long been dominated by the Shivans--a ruthlessly xenophobic species who consider themselves the arbiters of subspace travel.  For millions of years they have successfully crushed those who trespass that domain, much similar to a 15th century pirate armada controlling the trade routes of an ocean. 

In specific, the Shivan success has hinged on how opposing species never have either the weaponry to break Shivan shields, or the shields to resist Shivan weapons.  Thus the xenophobes scour the universe with multiple clones of the same basic fleet--a swarm of shielded fighters plus bombers, several dozen unshielded frigates, cruisers, and a handful of carrier/destroyers, and then at last a shielded superdestroyer flagship with beam cannons.  As these "Lucifer fleets" always win, the Shivans never see reason to upgrade. 

Ancients' Era
The Ancients begin using subspace to expand their empire, thereby eliciting the attention of the Shivans.  Like many species prior, the Ancients are unable to counter the resultant onslaught.  They do discover how to track Shivan ships into subspace, and likewise find out how even Lucifer-level shielding is useless therein, yet they fail to capitalise on these developments before the eradication of their empire.

Post-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di.  The new species is not only quick to duplicate Shivan weapons and shields, but also smart enough to develop subspace-tracking technology.  Warfare between the two sides forces the loss of many Lucifer fleets, compelling the Shivans to finally change methodology from offense/defense to offense-only.  Eliminating shields on all but their fighters and bombers, they arrange beam cannons onto the forward arcs of every large ship.  This evolution leads to many beam-laden juggernauts, as the pinnacle of a tactic to overwhelm Guan-di ships as quickly as possible.   

Despite that change, however, the Shivan defeats continue to mount.  Their efforts are hampered by a reliance on nebula gas for construction, without which their ships simply die faster than replacements can be built.  However, Shivan investigations soon reveal that the massive subspace engines of their juggernauts make stars unstable.  Subsequent experiments uncover a method to emulate, amplify, and focus that effect so as to detonate a star on command, creating a crude imitation of a nebula. 

This finding allows the Shivans to increase production tenfold, and thereby retake the momentum of the war.  Yet before long, the Guan-di once again display an adaptive genius by copying the nebula tactic, and thus keeping stride in the arms race.  In due course the two sides reach equal footing, where a stagnation of their war for several millennia is the result.

Terran-Vasudan Era, Great War
The Terrans begin exploring their galaxy using subspace, whereby they encounter the Vasudans.  Underneath the mutual hostilities and an eventual outbreak of war between the two sides, Galactic Terran Intelligence finds evidence of prior Shivan presence left over from the Ancients' Era.  The GTI moves quickly to control the evidence and begin experimentation.  Meanwhile, the T-V conflict draws the attention of an obsolete Lucifer fleet on patrol near the bounds of Shivan space; the fleet sets course for the Ross 128 star system and the unstable subspace node thereof. 

On arrival, the Shivans begin what they assume will be yet another simple campaign of extermination.  Yet the Terrans and Vasudans present a surprise, first by forming an alliance and then by rapidly assimilating Shivan technology--the latter boosted by some of the GTI's prior experiments being smuggled into GTVA efforts.  Once again the Shivans find themselves facing a persistent foe, but with the Guan-di war at hand they refuse to commit fully on a two-front fight.  Despite the lack of support, as well as a growing GTVA ability to counter Shivan fighters, bombers, and ships-of-the-line, the Lucifer fleet still pushes rapidly forth behind its impervious superdestroyer. 

The war next hits climax when the GTVA stumbles upon the Ancients' subspace tracking technology, and the concurrent uselessness of Shivan shields when in transit.  With that information, a last-ditch GTVA assault is able to halt the Lucifer fleet before it can reach the Terran homeworld.  The subspace node collapses from the superdestroyer's explosion, bringing victory at a price of all contact lost with Terra.  Afterward, the remaining Shivans are helpless to resist GTVA mop-up operations, and a tentative peacetime begins. 

Terran-Vasudan Era, Post-Great War
Throughout the entire Great War, Galactic Terran Intelligence operatives constantly scavenged the battlefields for items and intel to accelerate the pace of their experiments.  In the war's aftermath, GTI forces accumulate sufficient resources to break away entirely from the GTVA.  This results in a civil war between the two factions, culminating in the total slaughter of the GTI and the destruction of their project's crown jewel--a superdestroyer based on Shivan technology. 

After that victory, the GTVA appropriates some GTI research--especially in regard to Shivan beam weapons--then either destroys or classifies the rest.  Later, the kept technologies become part of a joint Terran-Vasudan project to create a juggernaut worthy against any future Shivan superdestroyer fleets.  Meanwhile, GTVA officer Aken Bosch undertakes a personal mission to follow in the GTI's footsteps for a different purpose: the establishment of contact with the Shivans.

Terran-Vasudan Era, Second Great War
More than thirty years after their victory over the Shivans, GTVA forces are entangled anew.  Humans with anti-Vasudan sentiments have formed a rebel group called the Neo-Terran Front, and are determined to topple the Terran-Vasudan alliance.  Unknown to the NTF at large, their supreme commander and the catalyst of the war--Aken Bosch--is in fact using each battle as a cover, so that he can plunder various star systems for Shivan and GTI remnants. 

The result of Bosch's efforts is twofold: a device to communicate with the Shivans, plus the finding of a huge subspace gate leftover from the Ancients' empire.  One of his ships is dispatched to activate that gate and explore beyond it.  Still in full clash versus Guan-di resistance, the Shivans have yet to regain any interest for T-V space.  The opening of the gate by Bosch's followers breaks that inattention and draws a few Shivan fighter patrols, leading to the severe damage of the NTF ship. 

Oblivious to the above, the GTVA and NTF continue their conflict.  However, GTVA investigations do reach the subspace gate, then the derelict ship of Bosch's followers, and finally a group of Shivan reinforcements sent to finish the earlier fight.  This encounter leads the GTVA to think a new offensive is near, while in truth they are still viewed by the Shivans as a minor distraction from the Guan-di threat.
 
Finally, the GTVA is victorious against the NTF.  In the last battle, Bosch sacrifices most of his fleet in an effort to make contact with the Shivans.  The resultant dialogue is successful from his POV, but in fact the xenophobic species not only considers his communications to be a heresy, they are also angry at the risk of his signals reaching the Guan-di.  The Shivans let Bosch believe that a rendezvous will be friendly, whereas their intentions are actually to seize his device for study and take him away for punishment.  Likewise they begin shifting several fleets to preemptively establish a foothold in T-V space against the Guan-di.

With the NTF defeated, GTVA focus turns to establishing a defense against the Shivans, in the rising belief that the latter's aggressiveness means another invasion.  Soon forced to retreat, the GTVA tries to curb the threat by destroying the subspace gate, only to discover that the node itself does not close.  Further combat appears to stop the Shivan incursion at the Capella star system, but the reality is that the Shivans are elsewhere organising supply elements for an armada.

Meanwhile, Aken Bosch and his remaining NTF loyalists finally have their audience with the Shivans, only to get the opposite of what was expected since he and his elite are captured and his crew slaughtered.  Yet by a quirk of fate the Shivans do not realise that the device they wanted to study is still onboard his ship, thus they leave it behind.  The GTVA remains one step behind the entire scenario, recovering the ship and just enough info to be even more confused about Bosch's motives and the Shivans' behaviour. 

Upon confirmation of the Guan-di's imminent arrival, the Shivans quicken their logistical and strategic efforts.  From observing those moves, the Terrans and Vasudans get a terrible wake-up call on the extent of Shivan military superiority, although they remain blind to the actual reasons behind the deployments.  Evacuations begin out of Capella, and the GTVA fleet offers escort along with plans to box the Shivans into the star system by collapsing its nodes to T-V space.

Mostly ignoring all GTVA activities, the Shivans start massing juggernauts around the Capellan binary, preparing to detonate one of the stars and create a resource nebula.  At the same time two GTVA destroyers carry superexplosives into the targeted subspace nodes.  Both sides accomplish their goals: the nodes are closed and the star goes nova, thereby halting the Second Great War.  While the Shivans now brace on a new front versus the Guan-di, an ignorant GTVA assumes that a reprieve has been won.

The Era of Freespace 3
Almost twenty years after the events of the Second Great War, the GTVA have learned how to replicate the huge subspace gates used by the Ancients.  A gate is made and it successfully re-opens the collapsed node to Sol, thus ending a fifty-year divide between Terra and the rest of the GTVA. 

Upon that reunion, however, surprises unfold: a rebuilt GTI at Terra has spent the time using wreckage from the Shivan superdestroyer to inform the creation of a new Terran / Vasudan / Shivan juggernaut, the Olympus Mons.  Not only does the ship own a pair of super beam cannon six times stronger than any prior, its makers also developed a shield system impervious to lesser beams yet still slightly protective in subspace.  The GTI / GTVA forces combine to plan for more warships, as well as to upgrade the existing GTVA fleet.

On the edge of T-V space, warfare between the Shivans and the Guan-di is running full tilt, where neither has an advantage and both are wrestling over nearby subspace nodes.  Their tumult spills over near the Ross 128 star system, where an unstable node now becomes stable and allows transit for fleets of titanic ships and innumerable fightercraft from both species.  GTVA sentries pick up on that battle, but neither the Shivans nor the Guan-di spare any attention from each other, thus the Terrans and Vasudans are able to observe from afar.  This revelation sparks GTVA fears of being steamrolled either by the conflict itself or else by its winner; a decision is made to contact both species, in hopes that one will be open to an alliance.

In following the schematics for Aken Bosch's device, the GTVA eventually recreates his communications technology.  A dual-pronged mission launches simultaneous negotiations with the Shivans and the Guan-di: its first half backfires, as the xenophobes are again angered at contact by what they deem as inferior beings--the best the GTVA manage is to find out Bosch's fate was indeed terrible.  On the other hand, the Guan-di react in a neutral manner, since their extreme focus on the Shivans leaves little room to see the GTVA as either interesting or threatening.   

As the war stretches ever-farther into T-V space, the GTVA desperately push to maintain talks with the indifferent Guan-di.  Thanks also to several covert GTI ops, gradually the conflict's entire scope is pieced together.  The Shivan paranoia and their parasitic grasp on subspace both become evident as the true danger; if they win the war, then all Terrans and Vasudans would be next on their agenda.  By contrast, the Guan-di are understood to be fighting a defensive struggle, with no real desire to either control subspace or occupy star systems.  A victory for their species would therefore appear likely to cause a unified return to their home territories. 

Later on, the GTVA acquires a critical new fact about the Shivans: all their individuals are mind-linked in a rigidly hierarchical collective, with command-and-control originating from a "Shivan Nexus" in their home region of the universe.  By the time the Guan-di learned of the Nexus, the Shivans had already massed overwhelming defenses around it, thereby dooming a subsequent Guan-di siege to miserable failure.

After considering the above, the GTVA decides to take a chance that the Guan-di would truly be non-aggressive if the Shivans lost the war.  A do-or-die mission is conceived about flying the super-shielded Olympus Mons all the way to the Shivan home region, with an aim to destroy the Nexus and thereby render the entire species helpless.  Because the Guan-di are unallied and unsympathetic, the GTVA readies itself to also fight through their fleet when necessary.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Buh?
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
say what? Well that is a very good stroy and would make a very good campaign but i doubht the reasons are that simple.

First of all the shivans in all theyr histori have been considered as a sort of galactic police squad if you will. Sure they may be maniacs but then again they mostly aprea when a wer is raging on. This was the case with the Ancients who were extermnating species after species or enslaving them thus dening them the opurtunity to evolve and become something better. If u look carefulli at the first shivan war ant the secnd shivan war they differ very much. I mean in the first war there was the goal of anihalation of both vasudans and terrans but in the second one this goal as abandodened for whatever they anted to do in capella.

This would demand one of 2 posible explinations:

a)either were talking 2 different shivan factions or
b)seeing that the GTVA has not only held in time but they actualy became stronger so there was no need for them to come in and clean up the house. No more senseless sloughter of each other but rather a peacefull destiny toghether. Well when theyr not fighting rogue factions that is. This would lead the shivans to consider that "the children" have evolved enough for them to consider that theyr job is done.

Also there is that other thing evolving from the fact that the shivans are actualy the simptom of a much greater problem. This can not be as some would sugest a destruction of the subspace fabric since that would mean thet the shivans woul come in and exterminate everyone and every race technologicly andvanced enough.

But rather something else something that would require the "childre" to grow up and become stronger, more adaptive in nature, more mature. Hell at this point the idea of another race which "scares" even the shivans seems plausible. I mean for all thery technological superiority the shivans saw theyr greatest ships destroyed at the hands of the "children" twice. I mean that has got to get u thinking. No matter how stubbern you are.

Also i believe that the shivans understood that the GTVA had plans to buid thery own knossos. This would of been quite a problem for them because they had no idea of what the GTVA forces were actualy like. Also since all GTVA designs are very diferent from shivan ones i mean they have good ofensive capabilities but also super defensive capabilities this would sugest to the shivans that in fact the GTVA is sort of like live and let live kind of thing. You can tell a lot by the weapons of your enemy you know.

these are all theories and cand be proven.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
I think that when V said the Shivans were a symptom of a "much greater problem" they probably just made things worse for those of us who wonder what really is going on.

I think that people will squable for the rest of eternity as to the real intentions of the shivans until V gives us the truth or makes a sequel (which we'll all dream about till death)

It's a shame the FS never sold well...there is so much life left to this universe, and yet we'll never have the real thing.

Pre-Ancients' Era
Eventually, the Shivans encounter a worthy opponent for the first time: the Guan-di....

So did you invent all that?   I mean, it sounds cool, but like everyone after me will say...if it ain't V, it ain't FS...
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Offline Gregster2k

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Personally, I don't think Ancient space was exclusive to the GTVA systems that we know right now. The fact of the matter is, weren't there other Knossos portals in that system in the DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT mission? That proves without any doubt that the Ancients had base camps "out there" beyond Gamma Draconis's nebula.

The so-called "Shivan Space" beyond Gamma Draconis is in fact the remnants of the Ancient empire. The Lucifer fleet from FS1 looks different from the Sathanas fleet in FS2 because the the Lucifer fleet found in Freespace 1 is the same fleet that blew up the Ancients and thus is the Shivans' oldest fleet design, whereas the Sathanas fleet is the result of the Shivans adapting Ancient technology for their own purposes.

You can see that the same general "spikiness" of the Knossos portal is also evident in the "new" Shivan ship designs, indicating that the Shivans literally stole Ancient technology after wiping the Ancients out -- probably integrating the Ancients' knowledge of subspace technology into their own ships. It is possible that the Shivans can use unstable nodes today due to use of Knossos technology in their own subspace drives. Despite the age of the Lucifer class they may have retrofitted the Lucifer class to also have this technology by the time FS1 rolled around.

As for why we don't see the Ancient inspired designs in FS2, the Shivans are probably just as smart as the GTVA. Which are you going to send out to explore the frontier and conquer other, more "pathetic" races? Are you going to risk the latest and greatest technology, or send out your older ****, because you don't care about your older craft as much anyway? Send out the older junk, the duct-taped junk, and leave the newer stuff to defend home!

The Lucifer fleet from FS1 was the "older junk" -- the same stuff the Shivans used on the Ancients -- their tried-and-true fleet. As for what the Shivans were doing in Capella -- I have no ----ing clue and I don't want to speculate on that point.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 10:37:52 am by Gregster2k »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Personally, I don't think Ancient space was exclusive to the GTVA systems that we know right now. The fact of the matter is, weren't there other Knossos portals in that system in the DIVE DIVE HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT mission? That proves without any doubt that the Ancients had base camps "out there" beyond Gamma Draconis's nebula.

Already said by the species text in FS2. 

Also, it's pretty well established the Shivans were more advanced than the ancients; for one thing,  I remember a V staff bloke on the VBB saying that the Lucifer was only impervious to FS1 era weaponry, not FS2.  The Ancients having that level of weapons tech in particular would mean that the subspace tracker was unecessary.

 

Offline Gregster2k

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Ahh, okay (I really need to learn to stop editing my posts after I post them lol) --- guess that means the Ancients didn't have beam cannons? :P

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Actualy it is a fact that the Ancients did not have beam cannons and i doubght they could of ever developed them in a efecient mannor as to cause significant damage. Remember that th only reason the GTVA has beam cannons is because they are based on the Lucifers flux cannons. If they didnt have the scans provided by Alpha1 i doubght they would of managed to get them functional in time. Also the GTVA unlike the Ancients is a young rhing so to speak. They are hungry for knoledge and thus have the skills necesarry for them to adapt improve steal what they need from theyr enemy.

We do know for a fact that theyr ship designs were more advanced then FS1 era ships. I remember seeing a post on the VBB that said they were only a little more advanced in this regard compared to the GTA/PVN . Posibly somewhere along the line of FS2 era ships but no beamcannons or no efective beamcannons.

But then again in regards to subspace i remember that the Ancients were way ahead of the GTVA. This was the one area were the ancients ruled so to speak. Also it would seem plausible that since the Ancients were so advanced in the realm of subspace the shivans might actuali take advantage of the Ancients technology regarding this. Theyr ships designs certainly resemble Ancient design. At leat FS2 era ships. This would sugest they mai have incorporated some of the design features and subspace tech avilable and posibly improved on them. But not all of them since it is clear they have no idea how to operate actual Ancients devices.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Remember that th only reason the GTVA has beam cannons is because they are based on the Lucifers flux cannons. If they didnt have the scans provided by Alpha1 i doubght they would of managed to get them functional in time.

Don't know where on earth you came up with that from; there's absolutely not indicators of how beam cannon were developed anywhere in the canon AFAIK.

But then again in regards to subspace i remember that the Ancients were way ahead of the GTVA. This was the one area were the ancients ruled so to speak. Also it would seem plausible that since the Ancients were so advanced in the realm of subspace the shivans might actuali take advantage of the Ancients technology regarding this. Theyr ships designs certainly resemble Ancient design. At leat FS2 era ships. This would sugest they mai have incorporated some of the design features and subspace tech avilable and posibly improved on them. But not all of them since it is clear they have no idea how to operate actual Ancients devices.

It's pretty clear from the monologues they weren't as advanced as the Shivans in subspace; you can tell it from how they regard the Shivans as punishing them for trespassing there - you wouldn't regard an inferior race (in this sense) as being 'enforcers'.

Plus, how on earth (or elsewhere) can Shivan ships 'match' Ancient design when we have never even see ancient design bar the radically functionally different Knossos?

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Actualy there was this post on the VBB that said that the GTVA beam cannons are actualy based on the lucifers flux cannons! I think. Damn cand find another source to back this up.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Mars

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
I think we can assume the Shivan's beam cannons function on the same princible as the Lucifers, but there is no indication if Terran beams work on the same theory as Shivan beams, unless it said so in the Templar campagin

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
WEll i can not remember exactly or find the exact post/topic where i read this but there was there an ample discusion reagrding GTVA/shivan beam technology. I do believe that the current beam cannons are the evolution of the Lucifers fluxcannons.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline ilya

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
One thing I don't get, if the Shivans are supposed to be more advanced than the Ancients, why haven't the Shivans built their own Knossos device?
--ilya
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Offline Mars

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Maybe they don't need them.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
oh yeah they dont need them thats why they staied in the nebula. They stayed there cuz they werent able to move out of it and into gama draconis. If you remember exactly they used no other jump node to enter GTVA space wich would sugest there is no other node that leads from there to the GD. except for the one with the knossos device.

this is ample proof that the shivans are still inferior to the Ancients when it comes down to actualy getting out of a jam using subspace technology. Sure the ships are impresive and have very advanced subspace drives but thats about it. They have no tech advanced enough to seel off or force open a jump node.

this leads me to believe that with theyr current subspace drives beeing so advanced they must of stolen at least some tech from the ancients regarding subspace.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
oh yeah they dont need them thats why they staied in the nebula. They stayed there cuz they werent able to move out of it and into gama draconis. If you remember exactly they used no other jump node to enter GTVA space wich would sugest there is no other node that leads from there to the GD. except for the one with the knossos device.

this is ample proof that the shivans are still inferior to the Ancients when it comes down to actualy getting out of a jam using subspace technology. Sure the ships are impresive and have very advanced subspace drives but thats about it. They have no tech advanced enough to seel off or force open a jump node.

this leads me to believe that with theyr current subspace drives beeing so advanced they must of stolen at least some tech from the ancients regarding subspace.

Yeah sure, the Ancients were so advanced and powerful that they couldn't deal with the "minor" threat that were the Shivans...

Seriously, where are you pulling all of this? If the knossos did lock nodes, why the hell were the Ancients obliderated? It's not like the Shivans have FTL drives (or do they  :drevil: ). Again read the monologues. The Ancients themselves said that the Shivans weren't interested in their tech, territory or anything the Ancients might have. The Shivans went for their "sins".
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Offline ilya

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Maybe the Ancients were more powerful than the Shivans, but the Shivans could easily swarm them, and destroy them... a la Stargate Atlantis.
--ilya
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Offline Mars

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
But there is canon data that the Ancients were at the same level of technology as the Terrans and Vasudans at the beganing of the Great War.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Shivan Intention Theories
Actualy there was cannon evidence i think that said the Ancients were anly 20 or 30 years ahead of the terrans and vasudans duting the Great War with the shivans.

Except in terms of subspace tech were they were way ahead of the terrand and vasudans!
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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