[Corsair]

What I've seen with this is that the Muslim really depends on the environment. I haven't met a single Muslim where I live in Central Indiana that has been anywhere near the radical that someone in the Middle East would demonstrate (bear in mind that the Muslim 'capital' of America is just barely north in Michigan). They never exploded about the drawings of Mohammed and viciously condemn the suicide bombers, and I trust them with that.

But still, the Muslims in the Middle East... that's an entirely different story.

Good point. Part of that environment is the education.

However, I'm guessing that a typical Muslim in the Western world is about as true a representative of Islam as a typical Christian is. What was it Shan-Yu (sp?) said in Firefly? "Live with a man 40 years. Share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge, and on that day, you will finally meet the man."

In communist China, where Christians are persecuted and under attack, you will find true Christians.

In Israel, when wars are waged against us, you will find true Jews.

Who do Muslims turn out to be when under attack?

I dunno, I always thought that was a pretty ****ty way of thinking... it tends towards broad generalizations. I don't think that's how you meant it, but that's how one could see it.

[aldo_14]

Can you really define a 'true Muslim' or 'true Christian', etc that easily?

I'd note, though, that all religions are under attack in China as a threat to the cult of the leader which Communist countries build.  That does include Muslims.  Of course, because they are Muslims and we have the raging suicide bomber stereotype nowadays it's much easier for the Chinese government to declare them terrorists and ban, oppress, or execute them.

I think it's important to remember the geopolitical differences here, though.  for example, the dominant power - only superpower - is a Christian country who is allied to Israel (due to what you might call a moral obligation following the crimes of WW2 and the failure of all allied nations to notice them quickly enough).  Wheareas the causes of Islamic terrorist atrocities - and this is no excuse for them - are based within small, poverty stricken countries with no allies or at best allies who are unable to lend any direct intervention.  So obviously - and this is the main frame of reference IMO because the situation is pretty common in the China example - you're going to react differently to a perceived threat or oppression based on whether you have a fleet of Apaches or just some battered AK-47s.

[an0n]

Yeah, they're just pissy because while all our ancestors were off inventing lightbulbs and state-funded healthcare, theirs were kneeling in the sand praying to Allah and ****ing camels.

It's classic civilization-envy. It's why all the barbarian hordes kept attacking Rome. They think if they topple the leadership they can just step in and take control of all the fancy Roman magic - not realising that the strength of the nation is systemic and stems from the leadership.

[Nuclear1]

Yeah, they're just pissy because while all our ancestors were off inventing lightbulbs and state-funded healthcare, theirs were kneeling in the sand praying to Allah and ****ing camels.

I'm clearing space in my sig for that.

[Turambar]

Yeah, they're just pissy because while all our ancestors were off inventing lightbulbs and state-funded healthcare, theirs were kneeling in the sand praying to Allah and ****ing camels.

It's classic civilization-envy. It's why all the barbarian hordes kept attacking Rome. They think if they topple the leadership they can just step in and take control of all the fancy Roman magic - not realising that the strength of the nation is systemic and stems from the leadership.

actually, while your ancestors were sitting around, picking their noses, and catching plague for about 800 years, my ancestors were busy creating one of the greatest empires the world had seen at that point, and advancing the areas of science and medicine.  (neither of which conflict with islam, 'god put in this world diseases, he also put cures')

ah, those were the days

[an0n]

Yeah, then they got their asses kicked.

[aldo_14]

Yeah, they're just pissy because while all our ancestors were off inventing lightbulbs and state-funded healthcare, theirs were kneeling in the sand praying to Allah and ****ing camels.

It's classic civilization-envy. It's why all the barbarian hordes kept attacking Rome. They think if they topple the leadership they can just step in and take control of all the fancy Roman magic - not realising that the strength of the nation is systemic and stems from the leadership.

actually, while your ancestors were sitting around, picking their noses, and catching plague for about 800 years, my ancestors were busy creating one of the greatest empires the world had seen at that point, and advancing the areas of science and medicine.  (neither of which conflict with islam, 'god put in this world diseases, he also put cures')

ah, those were the days

Just ignore him, he's trolling for a reaction from someone.

[BlackDove]

Actually it's a very valid opinion, one which I share, though perhaps in a few different ways.

[Turambar]

yeah, the only person i actively try to provoke is sandwich.

here' i'm just trying to defend islam, even though im not technically afiliated with it anymore.   its just because nobody else will

[vyper]

edit: meep

[an0n]

yeah, the only person i actively try to provoke is sandwich.

here' i'm just trying to defend islam, even though im not technically afiliated with it anymore. its just because nobody else will

I got nothing specific against Islam - well, any more than I have against any religion.

It's the Arab tards who follow it that I got a problem with. I just ****ing despise anyone who thinks marching and protesting and holding rallies is a legitimate form of expression.

If you're that pissed off about something, start a ****ing riot, try to improve the situation through legitimate means or shut the **** up and go back to boinking camels.

Protestors are pussies. They're the kind of people who'll only stand up as part of a group and spend the rest of their days sitting, whining about western oppression while they tell their wife to go clean the ****ing kitchen.

[Grug]

Protestors are pussies. They're the kind of people who'll only stand up as part of a group and spend the rest of their days sitting, whining about western oppression while they tell their wife to go clean the ****ing kitchen.

Seemed to work in the 60's.

[aldo_14]

Presumably if anon had a wife he'd be cleaning the kitchen for her, then.

[Polpolion]

 


 

[an0n]

I'm too tired to pretend I care enough to argue.

Sufficed to say, there's always a reason for people being poor.

[aldo_14]

And there's always a reason for people being twats.

[an0n]

I agree.

[DeepSpace9er]

Every civilization and culture that has ever existed has always had its beggars. I guess nowadays it depends on how you define 'poor' and where the 'poor' live. Throwing money at poverty has never fixed it. Creating a free market environment where hard work is rewarded and sloth is heavily frowned upon there will be less poor. Seems that nowadays people feel better about themselves if they throw billions of $ at poverty like the 'war on poverty' thats been waging for 60 years in America. Giving them money is like acceptance for being poor and keeps them poor. Even still there are structurally poor people who are druggies, dont care to work, lazy or all of the above. In poor countries they are kept poor by the dictatorial warlords.

[Moonsword]

*breaks out the sticks and hotdogs*

Ooh, this is heating up pretty good.

[IceFire]

Keep in mind folks that historically the Middle East is the cradle of human civilization as thats where most of the wandering tribes really got organized.  Remember that Babylon, a well recognized civilization in human history is located in modern day Iraq. 

Just because things a very bad right now doesn't mean that it always was.  Remember that 60 years ago Europe was embroiled in what some historians call a "European civil war" and things were very unstable.  Worse than they are right now I think.  Many more people died on a daily, monthly, yearly basis during the years between the beginning of the 20th century until the end of the 1940s.  Millions died during this time.  So lets not get quite all superior...it wasn't that long ago that the European/Judaeo/Christians were fighting each other (and I'm making a generalization for simplicy sake, I'm not trying to exclude anyone from that particular strife).

Personally I think the Middle East is in many ways, going through what Europe has already been through. Europeans have partially (not completely and not forever) lost their taste for war.  Things have been relatively peaceful in western and central Europe.  Far eastern Europe is not the same thing...but things are starting to stabilize there.  Its going to take some time.  The Middle East will eventually stabilize...given time....it may take a while.  It may not be in our lifetimes...but eventually the common person on the street will be so affected and realize that after fighting for so long that maybe its time to put down the guns for a little while and figure out something more long lasting.  I have some hope in that possibility...but there is plenty of fight left and far too many radicals in power with nothing to loose and everything to gain by sacrificing themselves or others to their cause.  When that seems less palatable...then there will be progress.

But like I said right now...in the West...Muslims do not have a good reputation based on what people have seen in the news.  And whats more newsworthy than people dying...thats what the news editors think and I don't think they have been too diliberate across the board to paint the wrong sort of picture.  But put this in perspective...if a bunch of white, blue eyed, blonde haired european background (I mean Americans, Canadians, British, French, German, whatever - genetics by location, nothing else) men showed up consistently on the media whearing yellow hats and blew people up, rammed planes into tall buildings in the Middle East.  What sort of picture would they have there?  Probably the same one that the West has right now.  Its a 'us' and 'them'...the West see's itself as a legitimate military force that plays by certain rules (albeit individually sometimes not - such as the various prison scandals) and the Iraqi's and others see themselves as the oppressed fighting against an enemy with all of the money, power, and advantage.

Perspective is everything.