Author Topic: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with resume  (Read 6326 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
French supported anti-government Insurgency.








*runs*

 
Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
Kazan - thank you for the copious sources for your information.  You've really supported your arguments.  :rolleyes:

And the liberalism you speak of that formed the US is not the same as popular liberalism today.  What you refer to as liberalism in the 1780's would be so conservative today as to be reactionary.  Our liberal Founding Fathers would be shocked today to see what "liberalism" is today.

Conservatism historically and today is about having a respect and appreciation for the past, and a realization that progress for the sake of progress is a bad thing.

Of course, on individual issues, conservatism means different things to different people at different times.  I would argue that modern liberalism (which is itself a conglomeration of left-wing causes and movements) is more dedicated to selfish individualism than conservatism.  Why else is everything under the sun declared a "right" and an "entitlement" whenever a leftist wants it?
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with resume
Quote
How very noble and principled of the Democrats, then.  These are the saviors of our race?

Where did I say that? Are all of them war heroes? No. I think he was the only one (I can't remember exactly), but what happened to Max shows just how sleezy the Republican party really is.

Quote
Aren't elected officials supposed to represent their constituents?  If something is "political suicide" then that means the public is against it.  Shouldn't they follow the will of the people, at least to some degree?

Perhaps, but what if public opinion is being manipulated by those in power? The Republican party has shamelessly exploited the tragedy of 9/11 for their own gain. They made everyone as scared as they could possibly be. So is that any better?

Quote
Clinton lied to the American public.  He said himself when he was an Arkansas governor and Nixon was president, that if a President of the US ever lies to the American people, he should resign.  But enough about Clinton.We're here about Bush.

Then why did you bring it up? Bush has also lied. He has lied about a great deal of things.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
Geez Kazan, you sound like a Democrat fanboy.

One does not have to be a "Democrat fanboy" to be against Bush's administration.

I mean, "lol":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13297-2004Jun28.html
Quote

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The Business of Rebuilding
Immunity Provision Extended for U.S. Firms With Reconstruction Contracts

By Ellen McCarthy
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 29, 2004; Page A18

U.S. contractors working in Iraq will be exempted from the legal processes of the country's new interim government when they are performing official duties and most reconstruction contracts will continue uninterrupted, U.S. officials said yesterday.
   
Under an order signed Sunday by L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civilian administrator of Iraq, the contractors' immunity provision covers "official acts that they perform in contracts in support of the Iraq reconstruction effort," said Scott Castle, general counsel for the occupation authority. In matters unrelated to their contract work, they will be subject to Iraqi rules.

lololollfffololmao god damnit

lol wtf

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
Geez Kazan, you sound like a Democrat fanboy.

One does not have to be a "Democrat fanboy" to be against Bush's administration.

I mean, "lol":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13297-2004Jun28.html
Quote

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The Business of Rebuilding
Immunity Provision Extended for U.S. Firms With Reconstruction Contracts

By Ellen McCarthy
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 29, 2004; Page A18

U.S. contractors working in Iraq will be exempted from the legal processes of the country's new interim government when they are performing official duties and most reconstruction contracts will continue uninterrupted, U.S. officials said yesterday.
   
Under an order signed Sunday by L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civilian administrator of Iraq, the contractors' immunity provision covers "official acts that they perform in contracts in support of the Iraq reconstruction effort," said Scott Castle, general counsel for the occupation authority. In matters unrelated to their contract work, they will be subject to Iraqi rules.

lololollfffololmao god damnit



There was horrendous theft & fraud by contractors during the 'rebuilding' period under the US' interim government in Iraq, IIRC.  Stuff like billing many times the actual cost, putting stolen items like Iraqi airlines forklifts on expenses, stealing from the vast tonnes of new banknotes shipped in with minimal security post-delivery (soldiers played american football with bags of $100 bills), that sort of thing.   

There was a company - Custer Battles - who were hired to replace every dinar note with one without Saddams face.  They set up shell companies to vastly inflate costs, invoicing $10m for expenditure costing $3m (including respraying Iraqi Airline forklifts and renting them to the CPA).  They actually managed to leave behind a spreadsheet of their fraudulent invoices in a meeting with CPA authorities.  The US took no legal action.

Contractors could just - and did - steal and steal and steal without any fear of repercussions; the result is a multi-billion dollar black hole (made even worse by the frantic spending of cash reserves - derived from Iraqi oil - before it could be handed to the Iraqi government; $5bn in the last month with little or no accounting) and a country which produces less electricity, less clean water and less oil than it did before the war in spite of supposedly massive spending. 

I remember watching a documentary, filmed partly (for Channel 4; Dispatches: Iraq's Missing Billions) in Iraq by a Baghdad doctor, who went to a supposedly refurbished hospital that had to buy the most basic drugs on the black market and improvise child intensive care incubators (held together by tape and wire, usually shared by multiple children because they only had 14) by placing an air tube directly on the mouth.  When you see a baby die (and you did) for lack of equipment that costs mere cents, and be carried home in a cardboard box because they don't have anything to store the body in you realise the horror that's been visited on that country.

The man put in charge of the reconstruction of the Iraqi health service was James Haveman, a former health administrator from Michigan.  He had absolutely no experience of international healthcare, no qualifications for this sort of urgent rebuilding job - but he was an evangelican Christian and had campaigned for Jeb Bush.  So he focused on showy, big spends rather than basic health care like clean water, basic drugs, etc.  He was interviewed on the aforementioned documentary, and you could tell he was essentially an idiot.  Or to be kinder, completely incompetent at that type of (essentially) disaster management.  Saddam did more to rebuild the Iraqi service in 6 months after the 1991 Gulf War than has been achieved atall since the last one, and that was in spite of sanctions and Saddam being a ****ing evil nutcase (who used to be our friend, actually - wonder which former UK ally will next be targeted?).

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
There was horrendous theft & fraud by contractors during the 'rebuilding' period under the US' interim government in Iraq, IIRC.  Stuff like billing many times the actual cost, putting stolen items like Iraqi airlines forklifts on expenses, stealing from the vast tonnes of new banknotes shipped in with minimal security post-delivery (soldiers played american football with bags of $100 bills), that sort of thing.   

There was a company - Custer Battles - who were hired to replace every dinar note with one without Saddams face.  They set up shell companies to vastly inflate costs, invoicing $10m for expenditure costing $3m (including respraying Iraqi Airline forklifts and renting them to the CPA).  They actually managed to leave behind a spreadsheet of their fraudulent invoices in a meeting with CPA authorities.  The US took no legal action.

Contractors could just - and did - steal and steal and steal without any fear of repercussions; the result is a multi-billion dollar black hole (made even worse by the frantic spending of cash reserves - derived from Iraqi oil - before it could be handed to the Iraqi government; $5bn in the last month with little or no accounting) and a country which produces less electricity, less clean water and less oil than it did before the war in spite of supposedly massive spending. 

I remember watching a documentary, filmed partly (for Channel 4; Dispatches: Iraq's Missing Billions) in Iraq by a Baghdad doctor, who went to a supposedly refurbished hospital that had to buy the most basic drugs on the black market and improvise child intensive care incubators (held together by tape and wire, usually shared by multiple children because they only had 14) by placing an air tube directly on the mouth.  When you see a baby die (and you did) for lack of equipment that costs mere cents, and be carried home in a cardboard box because they don't have anything to store the body in you realise the horror that's been visited on that country.

The man put in charge of the reconstruction of the Iraqi health service was James Haveman, a former health administrator from Michigan.  He had absolutely no experience of international healthcare, no qualifications for this sort of urgent rebuilding job - but he was an evangelican Christian and had campaigned for Jeb Bush.  So he focused on showy, big spends rather than basic health care like clean water, basic drugs, etc.  He was interviewed on the aforementioned documentary, and you could tell he was essentially an idiot.  Or to be kinder, completely incompetent at that type of (essentially) disaster management.  Saddam did more to rebuild the Iraqi service in 6 months after the 1991 Gulf War than has been achieved atall since the last one, and that was in spite of sanctions and Saddam being a ****ing evil nutcase (who used to be our friend, actually - wonder which former UK ally will next be targeted?).
While horrific, you really have to hand it to the lads in charge. I mean, to have the nation effectively falling apart and still be able to [mostly] cover it up... those magnificent bastards...

But then, we have to ask ourselves; is it actually being covered up, or do we just not care?

 

Offline Nix

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
So Saddam's better then, eh?  A "bat****" insane man who keeps claiming that his own trial is false, and he "rejects" it just because he's finally in the spotlight for crimes he's comitted??  Someone who still thinks he's in control of that country?  I'd rather have someone who's TRYING to get things back together in charge than THAT crazy guy.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
So Saddam's better then, eh?  A "bat****" insane man who keeps claiming that his own trial is false, and he "rejects" it just because he's finally in the spotlight for crimes he's comitted??  Someone who still thinks he's in control of that country?  I'd rather have someone who's TRYING to get things back together in charge than THAT crazy guy.

Hey, you rip Bush out of power and put him on trial, he'd act the exact same way. And that goes for most political leaders these days. Hell, if and when you're in a trial where your chances of being acquitted are as high as myself being crowned Supreme Overlord of the Earth, wouldn't you call that s*** 'false' and reject it?!

Iraq under Saddam may have been a somewhat shady regime, but it was a hell of a lot more stable and safer for the populous when he was in charge, even you can admit that.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
I'd rather have someone who's TRYING to get things back together in charge than THAT crazy guy.

They're not trying. They're using rebuilding Iraq as an exuse to line their own pockets. In that process they have to have something to show for it so they'll stick up a few buildings or do something that makes it look like they are making  improvements when really they've done very little.

What you should be demanding is that you actually have someone who IS rebuilding Iraq. You should demand that the money spent on the reconstruction (Which is your money if you are an America citizen) is actually being spent on Iraq not going into the pockets of those companies in the form of outright theft.

Sure the companies there may (in your opinion) be better than Saddam but considering how easy it would be to have someone better that Saddam OR what's there now you really have to wonder why on Earth you are defending the wholesale theft that is going on over there.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
So Saddam's better then, eh?  A "bat****" insane man who keeps claiming that his own trial is false, and he "rejects" it just because he's finally in the spotlight for crimes he's comitted??  Someone who still thinks he's in control of that country?  I'd rather have someone who's TRYING to get things back together in charge than THAT crazy guy.


Genuinely, I don't know now.  Saddam was an evil ****er, no doubt.  On the other hand, we've swapped a repressive dictatorship for complete chaos replete with rampant murder, kidnapping and terrorism, where the police are still being accused of ethnic cleansing and torture and there are strong Iranian links to the ruling parties.  I mean, it's a choice between bloody anarchy or repressive government (it's not even that distinct) - who can make that?

$23bn later, and there is still less water, healthcare, and electricity than before the war,  Surely it's not supporting Saddam to ask where the **** that vast amount of money - mostly Iraqi oil money - went?

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with resume
Well, let's put it this way; we've moved from state-organized murder, terror, and kidnapping to random murder, terror, and kidnapping of greater proportions. Is this progress? In which direction?
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Offline Kazan

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
ngtm1r arguably dependant on PoV, and legality of activities engaged in, there is still state sponsored murder, terror and kidnapping
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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
Conveniently you've ignored my post, Kazan.  And continued to spout dubious implications.  Feeling lucky?  ;7
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with resume
Conveniently you've ignored my post, Kazan. And continued to spout dubious implications. Feeling lucky? ;7

You just ignored mine too, but no matter. :p
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Kazan

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
there was nothing substantive in your post to reply to eightball - some BS about the founding fathers being "Conservative" which isn't even true by todays standards on most counts (socially conservative on some issues, but "raging left wing liberals" on government through and through)

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen snea
there was nothing substantive in your post to reply to eightball - some BS about the founding fathers being "Conservative" which isn't even true by todays standards on most counts (socially conservative on some issues, but "raging left wing liberals" on government through and through)

I'm not quite sure how, if you adhere to the actual meaning of the word, someone founding a new government could be anything but liberal anyways.

 

Offline Ace

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
there was nothing substantive in your post to reply to eightball - some BS about the founding fathers being "Conservative" which isn't even true by todays standards on most counts (socially conservative on some issues, but "raging left wing liberals" on government through and through)



Of course what I love about this sort of stuff is when you give exact examples of how each person wasn't a good old conservative boy you get the reply: "Well Jefferson, Hancock, Franklin, Washington, (list goes on) may have been liberals but they were the immoral and corrupt ones of the founding fathers, god's will still meant that there were used for good!"
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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
"Raging Left-wing liberals" suggests Marxists, to me.  I don't think there were too many Marxists among the Founding Fathers.  They were liberal for their time, yes, but for some reason I don't think they'd have been big fans of Social Security, for one thing.  Or the big spending popular with both Democrats and Republicans.

Kazan -  I was looking for some proof for your statements that you post as fact regarding Bush "lying."  Or do you apply to the school of thought that "if I want it to be true, it is"?

Kosh - here goes.

Quote
Where did I say that? Are all of them war heroes? No. I think he was the only one (I can't remember exactly), but what happened to Max shows just how sleezy the Republican party really is.
About as sleazy as the Democrats.  Or most political parties, for that matter.

Quote
Perhaps, but what if public opinion is being manipulated by those in power? The Republican party has shamelessly exploited the tragedy of 9/11 for their own gain. They made everyone as scared as they could possibly be. So is that any better?
On this point, all I have to say is don't blame the Republicans if the Democrats are incompetent.  They simply failed to shamelessly exploit the tragedy of 9/11.  It's not like they wouldn't have if they could.

Quote
Then why did you bring it up? Bush has also lied. He has lied about a great deal of things.
Yeah, I shouldn't have brought it up.  But I contest the statement about Bush.  What has he lied about?  Remember, there is a difference between being wrong and lying.

Note - I don't like the Republicans; they're just slightly better than the Democrats.

(Constitutionalist party for the win!) :p
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
Quote
Yeah, I shouldn't have brought it up.  But I contest the statement about Bush.  What has he lied about?  Remember, there is a difference between being wrong and lying.
Aw ****. You just done stepped on a land mine, son.
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Re: Mouth of Sauron resigns, Baghdad Bob seen sneaking in side entrance with res
Then blow me away.   :doubt:
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