[Mefustae]

"It was completely dark, they could not see anything, there was no light, they could not tell day from night."

 "There were speakers blaring music 24 hours a day that made sleep almost impossible."

"They could hear screams on occasion from other prisoners."

How did Eightball put it? 'Unpleasant Experience'? I'll bet.

[aldo_14]

"It was completely dark, they could not see anything, there was no light, they could not tell day from night."

 "There were speakers blaring music 24 hours a day that made sleep almost impossible."

"They could hear screams on occasion from other prisoners."

How did Eightball put it? 'Unpleasant Experience'? I'll bet.

Pff?  That?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4499528.stm

The CIAs 'Enhanced' Interrogation Techniques
1. Grab: the interrogator grabs a suspect's shirt front and shakes him.

2. Slap: an open-handed slap to produce fear and some pain.

3. Belly Slap: a hard slap to the stomach with an open hand. This is designed to be painful but not to cause injury. A punch is said to have been ruled out by doctors.

4. Standing: Prisoners stand for 40 hours and more, shackled to the floor. Said to be effective, it also denies them sleep and is part of a process known as sensory deprivation ( this was a technique used by British forces in Northern Ireland for a time until it was stopped).

5. Cold Cell: a prisoner is made to stand naked in a cold, though not freezing, cell and doused with water.

6. Water Boarding: the prisoner is bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round his head. Water is poured onto his face and is said to produce a fear of drowning which leads to a rapid demand for the suffering to end.

Let's see 6 in particular.

[q]"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess."[/q]

[Mefustae]

Wow, i've got to try some of these out on my mates. Torture techniques or party games? I'll be the judge of that.

6. Water Boarding: the prisoner is bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round his head. Water is poured onto his face and is said to produce a fear of drowning which leads to a rapid demand for the suffering to end.

I'm not sure why, but I kept reading that as "and a cellphone is wrapped round his head." Which confused me greatly.

[Shade]

Well, he may be in prison and about to be tortured, but you just don't deny a man his phonecalls. After all, it could be important.

[Nuclear1]

[q]"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess."[/q]

Which is actually nothing more than US servicemen with access to sensitive information are subject to when being taught to resist interrogation during training.

With that being the only thin I have to add to this, I'll close the door on my way out...

[aldo_14]

Which is actually nothing more than US servicemen with access to sensitive information are subject to when being taught to resist interrogation during training.

With that being the only thin I have to add to this, I'll close the door on my way out...

I think we already know 'the bad guys' use torture (most Middle East countries do, whether ally or enemy to the US), the point is that doesn't make it right for the US to apply it to prisoners.  I mean, said SERES training is consensual, after all.  The whole point is that adopting the techniques used by morally reprehensible countries tends to make you, well, morally reprehensible.

[Shade]

Plus, you actually have to sign a paper saying you waive your rights to protection under the geneva conventions before suchs training, otherwise even doing the training would be illegal. Or at least, they require that here. But given the severe risk of lawsuits over practically anything in the US, I'd be surprised if they didn't require something similar and indeed probably much broader.

[SadisticSid]

Guantanamo's existence could be argued for during wartime, perhaps as a distasteful but temporary stopgap measure...

With similar logic it could be said that Nazi death camps were just ok as they in war at that time.. Surely those were just a similar stopgap measures...

Or perhaps not.

Yes, because the logic of committing genocide on your own people and obtaining information pertinent to national security by torture is soooo similar. 

[Shade]

Except many of those in Guantanamo were picked up simply for looking suspicious. Or for getting on the bad side of an afghan warlord with decent US connections who then decided handing them over as terrorists would be a convenient way to disappear them. One case that springs to mind is the cab driver who was sent there for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time while doing his job. I'm sure there are some actual terrorists there, but that does not justify the indefinite detention and in some cases torture of many innocents.

I agree that comparing it to the concentration camps during WW2 is not fair though, that was on a vastly different scale and for a much more sinister purpose, but it is nonetheless a huge wrong that is being committed.

[aldo_14]

With similar logic it could be said that Nazi death camps were just ok as they in war at that time.. Surely those were just a similar stopgap measures...

Or perhaps not.

Yes, because the logic of committing genocide on your own people and obtaining information pertinent to national security by torture is soooo similar. 

Well, Jews (and gypsies, communists, etc) were regarded as enemies of the state by the Nazis.  You can encapsulate pretty much any crime as being within the national interest if you don't have oversight.

[Eightball]

I'd like to point out we're not killing them.

The US is decidedly not Nazi Germany.     Nor is it worse.

And I said I was conflicted over the torture stuff. 

[Shade]

Not them, no. On the subject of killing though, Bush's misguided war in Iraq have so far cost about 35000 innocent civilians their life, or more than 10 times the number dead from the WTC collaps that Bush repeatedly referred to when talking about and trying to justify the war - Regardless of the fact that there was no link between Iraq and the WTC attack whatsoever, and that he very well knew that. Hell, the US had closer ties to Bin Laden than Iraq did. He used to be one of the pals after all, back when he was killing russians instead of americans.

[Flipside]

This does raise the interesting question...

Did Nazi Germany know that it was Nazi Germany?

[aldo_14]

Not them, no. On the subject of killing though, Bush's misguided war in Iraq have so far cost about 35000 innocent civilians their life

At least 35000.  The Lancet estimated last (?) year that the number of deaths caused as a result of the war beyond normal mortality was about 100,000, and I don't think that included the people who are and will die as a result of the failure to provide both basic hygience and healthcare following the destruction of what Iraqi infrastructure there was before the war.

I'd like to point out we're not killing them.

Yet.  The US has IIRC introduced changes to the US military tribunal system (court martial) to allow the use of the death penalty.  There are also believed to be plans for a gas chamber at Camp Delta.

This is of course ignoring the 'ghost' detainess believed to be held in places like converted naval vessels (I believe one is based at Diego Garcia), whose execution would remain as unknown as their detention location.  And those who've died.

Yes, it's not Nazi-esque ethnic cleansing.  But it is still wrong, and it is still a massive crime.

This does raise the interesting question...

Did Nazi Germany know that it was Nazi Germany?

I thought it was quite well established that the majority of Germans didn't realise the extent and horror of the crimes committed by the Nazis.

[Flipside]

This does raise the interesting question...

Did Nazi Germany know that it was Nazi Germany?

I thought it was quite well established that the majority of Germans didn't realise the extent and horror of the crimes committed by the Nazis.

Exactly, and a lot of those who did have an inkling glossed it over or refused to see the full extent of the atrocity.

I agree that America is nowhere near as terrible in it's action as Nazi Germany, but Apathy is the paving stones on that road...

[aldo_14]

Exactly, and a lot of those who did have an inkling glossed it over or refused to see the full extent of the atrocity.

I agree that America is nowhere near as terrible in it's action as Nazi Germany, but Apathy is the paving stones on that road...

Doesn't have to be 'as terrible' of course, just terrible.

[Flipside]

To Quote Jefferson himself, the price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.

I'd like to think that included coming to terms with truths that people would rather not face.

[Unknown Target]

$20 says Republicans support the impeachment, get him impeached and turn on him, then tell the voters how good they are by getting rid of such a horrible man. After that, bang, they put someone even worse in power; for instance, if he gets impeached, doesn't Cheney take over directly?

[karajorma]

Not if Cheney gets charged too

[Janos]

To Quote Jefferson himself, the price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.

i thought that was wing commander 4