[Wild Fragaria]

How often do you see that?!   

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/27/hyenas.ap/index.html

Thursday, April 27, 2006; Posted: 11:04 a.m. EDT (15:04 GMT)


LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Dominant female spotted hyenas give their young a head start in life by passing on hormones that make their cubs more aggressive and likely to survive, researchers said on Wednesday.

They have shown that alpha hyena mothers have higher than normal levels of the male hormone androgen late in pregnancy which they pass on to their cubs, enabling them to become top dogs.

Androgen is linked to male characteristics such as muscle development, aggression and sexual behavior.

"What this means is that there are gifts a mom can give to her baby," said Kay Holekamp of Michigan State University.

"She can manipulate her offspring's behavior and help her kids to survive and reproduce successfully by transferring status-related traits via prenatal hormone exposure," she added in a statement.

Holekamp and her colleagues discovered the animals' secrets while studying wild spotted hyenas in Kenya over two decades. Their findings are reported in the journal Nature.

Spotted hyenas live in a female-dominated society. Females are bigger than males and more dominant. Their reproductive organs are similar which makes it difficult to determine their sex and awkward for the animals to mate.

"You don't find many mammals where the female is boss," said Holekamp.

Although females have masculine traits and unusual reproductive organs, they still maintain female characteristics. The hormones from the top-ranking mother enables her female cubs to attain the same status and be superior hunters.

Male offspring born to high status mothers are also more aggressive, according to the researchers.

[Flipside]

To be honest, I see it all the time in humans

[Grug]

What a most terrible sight it must be to behold one of them.

[an0n]

That's marketted as something new.

It's pretty obvious that the genetics that allowed one hyena to kill all it's competitors would be present in it's children.

[Wild Fragaria]

To be honest, I see it all the time in humans

Oh really?  I don't mind seeing an example if you have one 

[aldo_14]

The Chav/Ned gene.

[Black Wolf]

It's not genetic, it's hormonal, and that is something new. It's the equivalent of pre-natal steroids. Neat.

[Janos]

That's marketted as something new.

It's pretty obvious that the genetics that allowed one hyena to kill all it's competitors would be present in it's children.

No.
The properties that gave one particular hyena increased fitness are - by definition - present in it's offspring.
Duhh.

[Flipside]

LOL Well, I'm not sure I can come up with 'examples' as such, but you'll find that the 'pecking order' established amongst girls will be very similar to the order her mother worked along, the child of someone who is was low in the order when they were younger (or indeed even now) will, in most cases, end up in a similar position. I'd be interested to see some sort of stats as to how many girls who are 'Popular' have mothers who were Prom Queens etc.

[Grug]

LOL Well, I'm not sure I can come up with 'examples' as such, but you'll find that the 'pecking order' established amongst girls will be very similar to the order her mother worked along, the child of someone who is was low in the order when they were younger (or indeed even now) will, in most cases, end up in a similar position. I'd be interested to see some sort of stats as to how many girls who are 'Popular' have mothers who were Prom Queens etc.

That'd rely heavily on the environment and the make up of other people. Though some of the traits would probably follow on, yeah. But traits that make you popular in one decade, arn't necessarily going to be the same traits in the next couple of decades.

[Wild Fragaria]

Hmmm, I thought you were going to say you were a good example   What about Prom Kings?

[Flipside]

LOL Well, I'm not sure I can come up with 'examples' as such, but you'll find that the 'pecking order' established amongst girls will be very similar to the order her mother worked along, the child of someone who is was low in the order when they were younger (or indeed even now) will, in most cases, end up in a similar position. I'd be interested to see some sort of stats as to how many girls who are 'Popular' have mothers who were Prom Queens etc.

That'd rely heavily on the environment and the make up of other people. Though some of the traits would probably follow on, yeah. But traits that make you popular in one decade, arn't necessarily going to be the same traits in the next couple of decades.

It would depend on how the standing changes within the group, because human use Extelligence (Books, Stories etc) as well as Intelligence, our interaction is far more complex than other animals, we depend an awful lot more on communication and mental image creation than other animals, so it's a lot harder to seperate simple gentic traits from mentally imposed ones.

Hmmm, I thought you were going to say you were a good example   What about Prom Kings?

Heh, Well, that's why the classic image is of the Prom King and the Prom Queen getting together, it's us using romantic extelligence to explain natural selection I'm the youngest of 3 brothers, so being an Alpha anything has never really been an option for me.

[Grug]

Heh, I'm the eldest of four brothers. Does that make me king?

Ed:

It would depend on how the standing changes within the group, because human use Extelligence (Books, Stories etc) as well as Intelligence, our interaction is far more complex than other animals, we depend an awful lot more on communication and mental image creation than other animals, so it's a lot harder to seperate simple gentic traits from mentally imposed ones.

True, but you can't say that a popular person from one demographic x amount of years ago will be popular in another demographic now. Traits of personality can help yeah. But some traits won't always be viewed as "popular". It depends on the environment. Especially if someone moves to a different environment / society. The thing is, some things are passed on from parents, others are influenced or grown by an individual's friends / other people / their own experiences.

[Flipside]

LOL Possibly, they have probably already started telling you things like "Youre the oldest, so you have to be responsible as an example to your brothers". In a way that is putting you in a position of authority over them

Edit : Re Edit : True, without evidence I couldnt really say (why does my apostrophe key keep bringing up the search bar, thats bloody annoying)  but I suspect that even if you trace Hyenas back through 4-5 generations you will find a sort of biorhythm of social position depending on the needs of the group at the time. It is a lot more pronounced with humans because our social needs change so much more noticeably than those of Hyenas.

[Grug]

They being my folks?

Heh, my folks told me **** all about what I should be doing. Which has its goods and bads. But I generally had to figure everything out for myself. Which is a burden on the eldest at times. All I know is, that while I'm a little rough on my brothers at times, I still look out for them too. As the saying goes, blood is thicker than water.

Yeah, society is the catch. Which is kind of strange to see it evolve at the same time. How and why?
I think the key factors would be education and technology that give cause for society to evolve.

[Flipside]

Yup, 'They' is your folks, sorry, sort of had half the conversation in my head there

Exactly, with your comments regarding your brothers, you wouldn't expect your younger brothers to start telling you what to do, but you would fully expect your brothers to take your word on what is dangerous etc. That, in a way, makes you the Alpha of your siblings

Our 'special trick' is storytelling, it's what lifted us up above other apes (Id'ers and creationists had better stop reading here, I'm not going to get into a debate about that). First using cave paintings etc, we found a way of transferring information from one generation to the next, not just genetics, for example, there are cave paintings in Mexico that 'teach' that a good way to kill Bison is to use a long stick with a sharp point, I wonder how many lives were saved because youngsters learnt this trick before they'd ever encountered a Bison? We can conceptualise prey and hunting without having to risk our lives, most animals learn through play, but we could actually transmit ideas to future generations, thus saving us learning them over and over. It's only just becoming apparent that Chimps and other apes are beginning to use similar techniques, though they are a long way from cave paintings.

Because we can establish a foundation of an idea and then build upon it in the next generation, our society changes preternaturally fast compared to other creatures, wolves, for example, will follow the plan of the leader, for better or worse, they wouldn't revere a wolf that had a better 'idea', he would simply be seen as a threat to the Alpha, whereas we all admire Einstein, Newton and Galileo (the last being an incredibly good example of someone who went against the 'Alpha' to present a new concept). I think that's why, in human society, the Alpha Male and Female is so much harder to define.

[Grug]

So education then?

It does seem to be the prime things of life. Teaching the next generation. You'd think that if we were teaching the right things, society would only forever get better?
But I guess bad things get taught too, and evolve.
Ultimate catch 22 of humanity no?

[karajorma]

I think that's why, in human society, the Alpha Male and Female is so much harder to define.

Unless you're Derek Smart of course

[Flipside]

LOL Oddly enough, Mr Smart fell into the definition of Beta Male, banging the floor with a stick and doing a lot of posturing, Alpha Males don't need to do that.

[aldo_14]

Yup, 'They' is your folks, sorry, sort of had half the conversation in my head there

Exactly, with your comments regarding your brothers, you wouldn't expect your younger brothers to start telling you what to do, but you would fully expect your brothers to take your word on what is dangerous etc. That, in a way, makes you the Alpha of your siblings

Our 'special trick' is storytelling, it's what lifted us up above other apes (Id'ers and creationists had better stop reading here, I'm not going to get into a debate about that). First using cave paintings etc, we found a way of transferring information from one generation to the next, not just genetics, for example, there are cave paintings in Mexico that 'teach' that a good way to kill Bison is to use a long stick with a sharp point, I wonder how many lives were saved because youngsters learnt this trick before they'd ever encountered a Bison? We can conceptualise prey and hunting without having to risk our lives, most animals learn through play, but we could actually transmit ideas to future generations, thus saving us learning them over and over. It's only just becoming apparent that Chimps and other apes are beginning to use similar techniques, though they are a long way from cave paintings.

Because we can establish a foundation of an idea and then build upon it in the next generation, our society changes preternaturally fast compared to other creatures, wolves, for example, will follow the plan of the leader, for better or worse, they wouldn't revere a wolf that had a better 'idea', he would simply be seen as a threat to the Alpha, whereas we all admire Einstein, Newton and Galileo (the last being an incredibly good example of someone who went against the 'Alpha' to present a new concept). I think that's why, in human society, the Alpha Male and Female is so much harder to define.

Ever read Geoffrey Millers' The Mating Mind?  It's about how sexual selection would have acted to stimulate language and intelligence in human evolution.  Great book.