[phreak]

american football is fun.  Think of it as taking other people's land by force and wearing tight pants while your at it.

and aldo: throwing tree trunks is from scotland http://www-db.stanford.edu/~mor/2004/scotland/dsc_0704.html

[karajorma]

At least we're not fah-rea-king insane like all you Europeans about soccer! Mass riots? International wars? Jesus, and people make fun of Red Sox fans

Actually you are. Your press simply doesn't report it.

[aldo_14]

american football is fun.  Think of it as taking other people's land by force and wearing tight pants while your at it.

and aldo: throwing tree trunks is from scotland http://www-db.stanford.edu/~mor/2004/scotland/dsc_0704.html

a) caber is closer to a telegraph pole than a tree trunk
b)How many people do you think actually caber-toss?  Here's a hint; the Highlands are one of the least densely populated parts of the country.
c)I think I know what the primary scottish sport it

[phreak]

sarchasm, mr. spock

[CaptJosh]

Geeze. What have you people done with my topic?!

I just wanted an F-14 in the game.

Why? Because I want to see about sort of Top Gun mod. You know.

<Movie announcer voice> "You ARE Maverick. Take on your fellow pilots in training, and the enemy once you're on the battlefield. Can you excell at Miramar and graduate as Top Gun? Or will you have to wait until you're out on the battlefield to prove your supremacy over your friends...and, more importantly, over the enemy."

Doesn't that sound like fun?

[Mefustae]

Why? Because I want to see about sort of Top Gun mod. You know.

Lovely. So now we can suit up in an F-14 and conduct physically impossible maneuvers against American planes "disguised" as MiGs that would outmaneuver an F-14 in any other situation, all the while listening to deafening 80's pop blasted into our faces to give the illusion of 'edge', all presented in such a way that would make a music-video director blanch. Sound's like riles of fun to me!*

*In case you haven't yet noticed, I really, really hate Top Gun.

[Ford Prefect]

It's still vastly more interesting than anything concerning sports.

[vyper]

Why? Because I want to see about sort of Top Gun mod. You know.

Lovely. So now we can suit up in an F-14 and conduct physically impossible maneuvers against American planes "disguised" as MiGs that would outmaneuver an F-14 in any other situation, all the while listening to deafening 80's pop blasted into our faces to give the illusion of 'edge', all presented in such a way that would make a music-video director blanch. Sound's like riles of fun to me!*

*In case you haven't yet noticed, I really, really hate Top Gun.

Hiiiiiighwaaaay to the Danger Zone...

[aldo_14]

Surely I'm not the only person who thinks Top Gun was one of the most homoerotic movies in history?

[Mefustae]

Surely I'm not the only person who thinks Top Gun was one of the most homoerotic movies in history?

Nope

Edit: ****ing word filter...

Insert 's**t' at your behest.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=five_****ty_movies

[Mongoose]

Firstly, US sports have arguably a worse record on hooliganism than football does in Europe (http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1660884,00.html).  Although at least footie is exciting enough for people to care.  I have played rounders and baseball before, the latter courtesy of a merkin friend at school; it's just a dull sport.

I think it's hilarious to see all of the Philly bashing in that article.  Nice to see that our reputation extends globally.

I also love how that author keeps using the term "hooligan" for rowdy football fans, when almost no one over here would ever use it.  I prefer the term "drunk idiots" myself.  I also understand the points that he's trying to make, but I still don't see things as quite as hypocritically as he paints them.  Let's face it: I've rarely, if ever, heard of any sporting event over here where human beings are trampled to death by being crammed against fences. That's wrong on way too many levels. And yes, there is rioting when teams win championships, but then there was rioting during the immigration protests last week.  Get enough people together in one place impassioned about something, and things like that are bound to happen.  I also think he's greatly exaggerated a lot of what goes on during Eagles games; I think the dog **** claim is a little out of left field myself.  Sure, things get crazy, but to that level, I don't think so.

As for any sport being "boring," maybe I just look at things differently.  I found curling to be pretty damn interesting during the Olympics, I watch professional billiards on TV, and hell, I'm even a NASCAR fan.  And yet, I can't sit through five minutes of a soccer game without becoming bored.

thesizzler, I haven't played any sport in an organized fashion besides Little League baseball and high school tennis.  I can only go by what I see for sports I haven't played.  As far as soccer goes, I had a hell of a lot more fun playing it out in the backyard at night on a 30 degree hillside with the grass wet with dew and two cones set up a foot apart for goals than I could ever imagine having playing by any set of standardized rules.  Before you call me a hypocrite, I happen to have the most fun playing tennis in an actual match, so it's not that I dislike organized sports out of principle.

P.S. Top Gun kicks ass.  I "saw" that movie while still in the womb, and I'll watch it any time it's on today.

[aldo_14]

I also love how that author keeps using the term "hooligan" for rowdy football fans, when almost no one over here would ever use it.  I prefer the term "drunk idiots" myself.

Perhaps you should look up the meaning of hooligan; the authors exact point is that behaviour tarred as hooliganism relating to football (the proper name for the sport; soccer is association football, i.e. under the auspices of an association such as the FA, so if you use that then American Football is NFLball by the same standard) is dismissed as 'rowdy' in the US when it would draw hooligan headlines in the UK.

Let's face it: I've rarely, if ever, heard of any sporting event over here where human beings are trampled to death by being crammed against fences

Neither have I.  The last fencing-related disaster in the Uk was 1989, after which the fences were removed from stadia.   I don't know of any that have occured in Europe atall per-se.  Certainly I can't remember any riot-type event in the UK relating to a football game for years, not even the Old Firm ones.

What is interesting, and what I think shows the authors point very well, is that here your citing the same outright wrong claim referenced in the guardian article;

But first, here's a few brief extracts from America's ongoing and ever growing fascination with "soccer" hooliganism.

"We all know that in Europe you're not really considered a sports fan until you've been crushed to death against a chain-link fence," chuckles US TV satirist Steven Colbert.

[karajorma]

Geeze. What have you people done with my topic?!

I just wanted an F-14 in the game.

Why? Because I want to see about sort of Top Gun mod. You know.

Nothing wrong with that. In fact someone was doing something along those lines a few years back (IIRC it was Max Sterling). It's not very realistic but who cares as long as it's fun. Hell shove the music from the Afterburner arcade machine in the background and I'm sold.

The problem is when you start claiming that an F-14 could match anything in the FS2 universe. It's such absolute rubbish that you're going to get called on it if you say it.

[aldo_14]

Geeze. What have you people done with my topic?!

I just wanted an F-14 in the game.

Why? Because I want to see about sort of Top Gun mod. You know.

Nothing wrong with that. In fact someone was doing something along those lines a few years back (IIRC it was Max Sterling). It's not very realistic but who cares as long as it's fun. Hell shove the music from the Afterburner arcade machine in the background and I'm sold.

The problem is when you start claiming that an F-14 could match anything in the FS2 universe. It's such absolute rubbish that you're going to get called on it if you say it.

Didn't Nico add in a bunch (well, I remember one...) of modern day fighters a while back.  I don't think he did a Tomcat, though; I suspect one was an F-22.

[Mongoose]

The impression that I received from that article was that "hooliganism" was a term referring to a more organized form of sports-related violence, rather than a few morons who had a few too many at a game.  If that wasn't what it was referring to, then I was incorrect in thinking that the term wouldn't apply.  As for the claim itself, all I really have to go on is what has always been presented in the media over here, wrong or not; it's not like I can just hop over there and see if those claims are incorrect, even if I did have the reason/motivation to do so.  All I know is that, in both the media and entertainment over here, this football "hooliganism" has always been given that sort of treatment; even if you turn on one of those "World's Wildest Police Videos" programs that air during daytime cable, you're likely to see at least one European or South American sports-related incident.  (For all I know, these videos could be twenty years old, but I've seen them nontheless.)    If this coverage really is as incorrect as the article states, then it makes a very good point.

I'll ask you this, as someone who's obviously much more familiar with it than me: exactly how much coverage does sports-related violence receive in your country's media, and is it coverage that is generally accepted or just dismissed as sensationalism?  Also, is the whole idea of organized thugs at sporting events just another aspect of the misinformation, or does/did that sort of thing really exist?  I can honestly say I've never heard of something like that happening over here, although that doesn't mean it hasn't happened or isn't happening.

P.S. Regarding one specific point the article made, about the Ron Artest fight in the stands during the Pacers/Pistons basketball game, I can tell you that that was in the news and sports talk almost nonstop for at least a good two weeks, so much so that I became extremely tired of hearing about it after the first day or two.  The league definitely didn't brush it off as something inconsequential, either.

[Wobble73]

I can say being a Brit that hooliganism has all but been stamped out here in the UK, there are still a few small factions, but these are rarely reported in the media as this would give the gangs Kudos, (street cred). It 's now more prevelant in mainland Europe than it is here. But we have the dubious honour of creating football hooliganism. Hooliganism as a whole in the uk is now more associated with drinking alcohol (lots within a short space of time) there's a word for this which escapes me for the moment!

[Janos]

what is your favourite dinosaur dudes

mine is propably oviraptor

[aldo_14]

The impression that I received from that article was that "hooliganism" was a term referring to a more organized form of sports-related violence, rather than a few morons who had a few too many at a game.  If that wasn't what it was referring to, then I was incorrect in thinking that the term wouldn't apply.  As for the claim itself, all I really have to go on is what has always been presented in the media over here, wrong or not; it's not like I can just hop over there and see if those claims are incorrect, even if I did have the reason/motivation to do so.  All I know is that, in both the media and entertainment over here, this football "hooliganism" has always been given that sort of treatment; even if you turn on one of those "World's Wildest Police Videos" programs that air during daytime cable, you're likely to see at least one European or South American sports-related incident.  (For all I know, these videos could be twenty years old, but I've seen them nontheless.)    If this coverage really is as incorrect as the article states, then it makes a very good point.

I'll ask you this, as someone who's obviously much more familiar with it than me: exactly how much coverage does sports-related violence receive in your country's media, and is it coverage that is generally accepted or just dismissed as sensationalism?  Also, is the whole idea of organized thugs at sporting events just another aspect of the misinformation, or does/did that sort of thing really exist?  I can honestly say I've never heard of something like that happening over here, although that doesn't mean it hasn't happened or isn't happening.

P.S. Regarding one specific point the article made, about the Ron Artest fight in the stands during the Pacers/Pistons basketball game, I can tell you that that was in the news and sports talk almost nonstop for at least a good two weeks, so much so that I became extremely tired of hearing about it after the first day or two.  The league definitely didn't brush it off as something inconsequential, either.

Put it this way.

Yes, it does happen.  When it does, it is reported seriously; it's referred to as 'the english disease' after all (it's never been a major problem in Scotland though, in spite of the Old Firm rivalry, and the Tartan Army is world-reknowed for their impeccable behaviour).  It does not happen anywhere near as often as the US media portrays it, and I cannot personally remember hearing of a major disturbance - i.e. crowd riot in or outside the ground - at a British football game in my lifetime.  Although there are more significant problems in Europe - the Lazio Ultras spring to mind - it is still the exception rather than the rule.  So it is grossly unfair that the US popular media perpetuates this bizarre stereotype of football being violent or dangerous to watch; even more unfair to the English, of course, because the US tends to forget the rest of the British Isles exists.

Hooliganism FYI refers to a group of people causing destruction or violence;  usually male, usually drunk.

[Corsair]

Baseball is my god. Go Yankees. Enough said.

[StratComm]

It usually isn't though.  There's a certain amount of cherry picking here by those writing that story that I don't really want to get in to but overall violent, dangerous behavior is given a lot of publicity here.  See the Pistons/Pacers Palace brawl in late 2004; the fans were run through the media grinder over their behavior there (leading to a re-evaluation of the sale of alcohol at all NBA events, I might add, even though I don't think anything changed in the long run).  There's a lot of talk about how inappropriate rioting is too, when it happens.  The Red Sox thing was a bit of an exception because that franchise is steeped in so much history and tradition (real tradition, not some phantom thing that gets brought out to sell more tickets) that it was almost expected to happen once they won.  It doesn't excuse it of couse, but the media treated it a bit more kindly than they would have had it been anyone else.  College students rioting after a title win though is slammed by the press pretty universally; there's just enough colleges out there that it's usually confined to regional news sources.

As for fan behavior at the games, well, that's why I don't plan on attending any professional sporting events for the forseeable future.  Football (American football) falls under the same distinction in my mind as NASCAR and professional "wrestling"; it caters to the lowest common denominator.  It feeds off of the fans that can't afford the $40 for a ticket but buy them anyway, and those fans are the ones least likely to respect others, to respect the rules, or to respect their limit for alcohol (stereotyping here, I know, but there's certainly some truth to it) and so to an extent violent and reckless behavior is to be expected at those events.  I think most of America actually sees soccer as a more dignified sport (though most of us don't understand the game properly) and so reckless fan behavior comes as a bit more of a suprise to us even if it is less common than at the big American sporting events.  There's rampant classism involved along with a myriad of other domestic issues that I've become particularly sensitive to lately (and which I won't get in to here) but I guess my point is that the American sports media doesn't single soccer fans out as "Hooligans" because they want to pick on a foreign sport or to pander to any culteral or nationalistic attitudes; they do it (when they do it, it's not common at all) because it's not expected from soccer fans the way it is expected from NFL (or insert any "common" American sport) fans.