Author Topic: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues  (Read 3833 times)

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Offline Ranavin

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FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
I just recently found out about FSP, and decided to give it a try in conjunction with FS2O. Here's my setup:
- install of FS2 to F:/Games/Freespace2/
- patched to 1.20
- FS2O binaries in Freespace2/
- FS2O VP files in Freespace2/MediaVPs/
- FSP VP files in Freespace2/fsport/
- FS1 cutscene files (from the FS1 discs and converted with mve2avi) in Freespace2/fsport/data/movies/

So. For the most part, everything works fine, cutscenes play and Freespace has never looked better. Can't wait to see the SD Lucifer's beam turrets in action. There are, however, a few minor difficulties...
- in command briefings, the ANI plays but is still sized for 640x480, so it looks tiny at 1024x768
- in ship selection, the ship ANI plays and is scaled for 1024x768, but the entire game slows down massively until I leave that screen
- in weapon selection, I get a still image rather than ANI of the weapon
- in the the tech room, ships work fine but none of the weapon ANIs play

All of these I can pretty much ignore, but it would be nice to know if there's a solution to any of them.

 

Offline Cobra

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
- The ANI's are being worked on. Currently the FSPort is using the original FS1 ANI's until they can resize them properly.
- Probably because of the model detail. You might not have the kind of hardware to view it without slowdowns.
- There aren't any weapon ANIs at the moment.
- make sure you have the right VPs installed.
To consider the Earth as the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field of millet, only one grain will grow. - Metrodorus of Chios
I wept. Mysterious forces beyond my ken had reached into my beautiful mission and energized its pilots with inhuman bomb-firing abilities. I could only imagine the GTVA warriors giving a mighty KIAAIIIIIII shout as they worked their triggers, their biceps bulging with sinew after years of Ivan Drago-esque steroid therapy and weight training. - General Battuta

 

Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
- The ANI's are being worked on. Currently the FSPort is using the original FS1 ANI's until they can resize them properly.
Alright, I'll be patient then.
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- Probably because of the model detail. You might not have the kind of hardware to view it without slowdowns.
You misunderstand; it's not displaying the model, but the ANI. Furthermore, it's displaying the ANI at full (1024x768) size. The only explanation I can think of is that it's upscaling the 640x480 ANI in software, which accounts for both the full size and the slowdown.
If I set -ship_choice_3d it displays the model instead of the ANI and works fine, but it's not as shiny.
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- There aren't any weapon ANIs at the moment.
- make sure you have the right VPs installed.
If there aren't any weapon ANIs, that would explain why they don't show up in the tech room, wouldn't it? This of course begs the question of why the still images that are displayed on the weapon selection screen aren't also displayed in the tech room.
Continuing on this topic, do the ANIs have to be explicitly converted between formats in order to work with FS2, and that's why there aren't any weapon ANIs in FSP yet? Or is it just that they haven't yet been suitably packaged?

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Cobra, if you don't know the answer, then don't say anything.  Misinformation is worse than no information.

Now then...

I just recently found out about FSP, and decided to give it a try in conjunction with FS2O. Here's my setup:
- install of FS2 to F:/Games/Freespace2/
- patched to 1.20
- FS2O binaries in Freespace2/
- FS2O VP files in Freespace2/MediaVPs/
- FSP VP files in Freespace2/fsport/
- FS1 cutscene files (from the FS1 discs and converted with mve2avi) in Freespace2/fsport/data/movies/

Glad to hear you were able to get everything set up. :)

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- in command briefings, the ANI plays but is still sized for 640x480, so it looks tiny at 1024x768

Indeed.  Unfortunately, there's not really a way to get around that without resizing all the cbanis.  And FS1 cbanis don't lend themselves well to resizing - they're square, as opposed to rectangular like the FS2 cbanis, which means that even if you sized them up you'd still have a lot of empty space on the left and right sides.

There's also the fact that resizing all the cbanis would be a rather large undertaking and add a large (optional) download for an uncertain benefit. :)

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- in ship selection, the ship ANI plays and is scaled for 1024x768, but the entire game slows down massively until I leave that screen

This sounds like an SCP bug.  Post in the SCP forum.

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- in weapon selection, I get a still image rather than ANI of the weapon

Yup.  We didn't (and still don't) have access to the weapon models, so we had to use still frames.

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- in the the tech room, ships work fine but none of the weapon ANIs play

Hmm.  That's because we forgot to specify them in the weapons table. ;) That'll be fixed in the next release.  (Even so, they'll just be the same as the loadout images.)

 

Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
There's also the fact that resizing all the cbanis would be a rather large undertaking and add a large (optional) download for an uncertain benefit. :)
Clearly the solution is to write something that will automatically do the rescaling on the host system. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced the site with the file format specifications on it; can you furnish me with a link?

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- in ship selection, the ship ANI plays and is scaled for 1024x768, but the entire game slows down massively until I leave that screen

This sounds like an SCP bug.  Post in the SCP forum.
Will do.

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Yup.  We didn't (and still don't) have access to the weapon models, so we had to use still frames.
I must confess to some confusion on this matter, or perhaps I'm not clearly describing the effects I'm seeing. Here's what happens:
- if -ship_choice_3d is being used:
  - for guns: it displays a single frame from the gun's ANI; the ANI sound plays but the image remains static
  - for missiles: it displays a side view of the missile's 3d model, without animation; the ANI sound plays
- otherwise:
  - for both guns and missiles: it displays a single frame from the weapon's ANI; the ANI sound plays
There is a small but detectable slowdown in each case.
So - what's going on here? If -ship_choice_3d is set, it makes sense that no model is displayed for the guns, as they lack models to begin with; but can the missile models not be displayed in the same manner as the ship ones? Conversely, when -ship_choice_3d is not set, why does it display still images rather than the ANI, in contrast with ship selection? And why does the ANI sound still play in the background in all cases?
Or is this an FS2O thing as well?

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Hmm.  That's because we forgot to specify them in the weapons table. ;) That'll be fixed in the next release.
Excellent.

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(Even so, they'll just be the same as the loadout images.)
See my questions about loadout images above...

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Clearly the solution is to write something that will automatically do the rescaling on the host system. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced the site with the file format specifications on it; can you furnish me with a link?

Indeed.  I'm not sure that rescaling on the fly is possible, though; taylor in the SCP forum may have more to say on this matter.  Anyway, as for the file specification, look here...
http://web.archive.org/web/20030103144108/www.freespace-2.com/ddn/specs/ani/

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Yup.  We didn't (and still don't) have access to the weapon models, so we had to use still frames.
I must confess to some confusion on this matter, or perhaps I'm not clearly describing the effects I'm seeing. Here's what happens:
...
So - what's going on here? If -ship_choice_3d is set, it makes sense that no model is displayed for the guns, as they lack models to begin with; but can the missile models not be displayed in the same manner as the ship ones? Conversely, when -ship_choice_3d is not set, why does it display still images rather than the ANI, in contrast with ship selection? And why does the ANI sound still play in the background in all cases?

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from.  Volition created the weapon animations by designing a weapon model (the gun itself, not the ammunition) and animating it rotating around a grid.  Since we don't have the models they used, we had to use the still images provided in publicity renders.

As for the ANI sound, it's programmed to play regardless of what appears on screen.

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(Even so, they'll just be the same as the loadout images.)
See my questions about loadout images above...

Actually, I was incorrect here.  The tech animations will be the same as those used in the command briefings.

 

Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Clearly the solution is to write something that will automatically do the rescaling on the host system. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced the site with the file format specifications on it; can you furnish me with a link?

Indeed.  I'm not sure that rescaling on the fly is possible, though; taylor in the SCP forum may have more to say on this matter.  Anyway, as for the file specification, look here...
http://web.archive.org/web/20030103144108/www.freespace-2.com/ddn/specs/ani/
...fs-2.com is dead? Woe, woe and biscuits. No wonder I couldn't find it.
And I wasn't thinking about on-the-fly rescaling; rather, a program you can run that will unpack the VPs, rescale the appropriate ANIs, and repack them. So if you want to play in 1024x768, you run this program, then put then VPs it generates someplace where they'll override the 640x480 versions.
ANI seems to be fairly simple flat-packed RLE, not hard to either take apart or put back together; the only tricky bit is the scaling itself and post-scale quantization, which I'll have to borrow algorithms for.
Happily, performance is not an issue.

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I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from.  Volition created the weapon animations by designing a weapon model (the gun itself, not the ammunition) and animating it rotating around a grid.  Since we don't have the models they used, we had to use the still images provided in publicity renders.
Aha. I did misunderstand, but part of my question still stands: you don't have the original 3d models, but you do have the ANIs that were generated from them; so what stops you from playing the ANIs at original scale (a la the CBANIMs) or playing them upscaled (a la the ship selection screen), rather than putting up a still image?

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As for the ANI sound, it's programmed to play regardless of what appears on screen.
Aah. That explains it.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
And I wasn't thinking about on-the-fly rescaling; rather, a program you can run that will unpack the VPs, rescale the appropriate ANIs, and repack them. So if you want to play in 1024x768, you run this program, then put then VPs it generates someplace where they'll override the 640x480 versions.
ANI seems to be fairly simple flat-packed RLE, not hard to either take apart or put back together; the only tricky bit is the scaling itself and post-scale quantization, which I'll have to borrow algorithms for.
Happily, performance is not an issue.

There are programs to do that already.  Use VPVIEW to extract the ANIs, ANIVIEW to extract the frames, Irfanview/Bright to batch resize them, ANIBLD to build new ANIs, and cfilearchiver to build a new VP.  Tedious, but not hard.  But again, it's a lot of work for little benefit.

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Aha. I did misunderstand, but part of my question still stands: you don't have the original 3d models, but you do have the ANIs that were generated from them; so what stops you from playing the ANIs at original scale (a la the CBANIMs) or playing them upscaled (a la the ship selection screen), rather than putting up a still image?

In both FS1 and FS2, the loadout ANI is different from the tech ani.  We wanted to preserve that difference.  It was a design decision. :)

 

Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
There are programs to do that already.  Use VPVIEW to extract the ANIs, ANIVIEW to extract the frames, Irfanview/Bright to batch resize them, ANIBLD to build new ANIs, and cfilearchiver to build a new VP.  Tedious, but not hard.  But again, it's a lot of work for little benefit.
Yes, I know; and if their license allows I may use parts of their source. The point here is to have something automated; something that J Random Player can download, run, and come back half an hour later to have animations that work perfectly in 1024x768, without needing to understand how to use all of these tools.

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In both FS1 and FS2, the loadout ANI is different from the tech ani.  We wanted to preserve that difference.  It was a design decision. :)
I'm not sure how this has any bearing on my question, which is: why are you using still images rather than the loadout ANIs on the loadout screen?

[EDIT]
I've done some poking around in the VPs, gathering resolution information. Found out three interesting things:
- FS2 CBANIMs aren't upscaled! It's less obvious because they're bigger to begin with, but both resolutions use the 640x480 versions. I should fix this once I have the automated resizer working. The tech/intel ANIs aren't scaled either.
- FS1 weapon ANIs are larger than FS2 640x480 weapon ANIs, and FS1 ship ANIs are larger than both 640x480 and 1024x768 FS2 ones! I'm wondering if cropping might be the answer here rather than resizing, especially as half the ANI is ship statistics which are provided as plaintext in FS2's interface rather than as part of the animation.
- the slowdown on the ship selection screen is definitely an FS2O problem.

[EDIT]
All of the program is working now except the part that does the actual scaling. I may end up needing SDL_rotozoom for this.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 05:23:21 pm by Ranavin »

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
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In both FS1 and FS2, the loadout ANI is different from the tech ani.  We wanted to preserve that difference.  It was a design decision. :)
I'm not sure how this has any bearing on my question, which is: why are you using still images rather than the loadout ANIs on the loadout screen?

I already answered that.  We don't have the models to do a full loadout animation, so we had to use still frames.

 

Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
I already answered that.  We don't have the models to do a full loadout animation, so we had to use still frames.
The bit I don't get is why you need the models at all. The animations are right there in $FREESPACE/data/freespace.vp:data/Interface/LoadGun*.ani and LoadMissile*.ani; there's no need to re-render them from source.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
The FS1 animations aren't scaled properly for the FS2 loadout screen.
The Trivial Psychic Strikes Again!

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
The bit I don't get is why you need the models at all. The animations are right there in $FREESPACE/data/freespace.vp:data/Interface/LoadGun*.ani and LoadMissile*.ani; there's no need to re-render them from source.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.  TP is right; they won't fit.  In addition, they have overlapping text which prevents us from cropping them down.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
On the other hand, perhaps the Port team could make use of those animations, by porting over some of the FS1 loadout interface screen.  ;7
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Offline CaptJosh

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Trivial, do you remember how long it took for them to get the FS1 hangar decks in there? Do you really want to add to the burden they have with trying to make sure everything is right?
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Offline Ranavin

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Well, on the one hand, unlike the hangar screens the loadout/tech screens don't have integrated subsidiary animations that have to be perfectly rescaled and fitted.
On the other hand, you may have a point.

At any rate, let's see what kind of results my automated ANI rescaler comes up with once I finish it.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: FSP+FS2O: mostly good but some minor issues
Actually, the hangar decks weren't hard to add.  It just took forever for us to get around to doing them. :nervous: We were spending all our time on ST:R to the exclusion of everything else in the Port.

The problem with the FS1 loadout animations is that it would require a skilled graphics artist to separate the weapon from the background text.