[CP5670]

(yes, I'm probably creating way too many topics in this forum; that's what happens when you join a forum too late and are full of ideas.     )

Anyway I just had a few thoughts on the Vasudan Imperium portion of the GTVA and I wanted some other opinions/theories on the subject.

It is said that Khonsu II is the heir to a 10000-year old dynasty, but isn't this probably exaggerated? (a lot, hehe) I think it is pretty much accepted that Vasudans followed similar evolution paths as Terrans, and I doubt we had organized governments (and reliable records) that long ago, even after adding 368 years for the FS2 storyline. Also, a single dynasty like that could hardly remain in power for so many years; at some point a malevolent leader will come up and the people will revolt, installing a new government. (I think Vasuda Prime was at one time split between several independent nations as Earth is today, so there would be many leaders trying to grab power of the larger governments)

Also, I have a feeling that the "emperor" title for Khonsu II might just be figurative while he is actually more of a president or a prime minister in terms of the governmental powers he has. The Vasudan Imperium probably operates as a federation (like the General Assembly) with the central government somewhere in Aldebaran working with the regional system and planetary ruling bodies; an empire encompassing many systems run by a monarch wouldn't last too long before the outer systems secede and the whole structure breaks apart. (which obviously is not happening since Vasudan civilization is said to be greatly prospering around the FS2 time period)

Either that or Khonsu II is simply a symbolic figurehead with very little actual political influence, but I don't think this is likely since they said in the Colossus cutscene that he originally worked to bring about the construction of such a project. (he might have been the first prominent person to seriously consider the idea)

Also, the old Vasudan regime was parliamentary (democratic) in some ways and it is pretty rare to have a democratic government fall in favor of a monarchy. I think that the VPE was similar to one of these pseudo-democracies found in some "rogue nations" today, where it looks like a democracy from the outset but the military is actually running the whole show and elections are stage-managed by the army. (the PVN in this case) I remember reading something in FS1 over a year ago where it said that the VPE was "parliamentary in nature" but was run by a particular royal family along with some quasi-royal ambassadors or something. (can't remember any more than that, or even where I read this   ) The GTVA probably functions more effectively since the Security Council (probable military division) is distinct from the other two bodies.  

Any ideas or opinions on this stuff?  

(okay, I won't make any more topics for now    )

[This message has been edited by CP5670 (edited 12-30-2001).]

[vadar_1]

Humans have a less evolved thinking pattern, and logical reasoning as the Vasudans. Therefor, we could not understand that the Vasudans might have a better wisdom towards power, and not strive to "grab as much as they can". Instead, they leave the power up to the one who is most wise, and a 400 year old vasudan who passes all of his wisdom to his child, who then gains another 400 years of wisdom, is pretty damn wise. Thats why there can be a 10 milleniums of a dynasty. Specially since you see fighting amoung the terrans, even within their own governments  

I regret your efforts to intercept us have failed, pilots. You would be well advised to question the wisdom of your leaders. Helm, engage subspace drive.

Damn it! Command let Bosch escape!

The Vasudans had the HOL, but they formed their own government, and didn't seem to question the PV.

[Nico]

where do you get vasudans live 4for 00 years?
hey, calm down! I always wanted to know how long did a vasudan is supposed to live, so I ask you, nothing more  

[CP5670]

Actually, the FS Reference Bible says that the Vasudans "were similar to humans in many ways" including "the willingness to sacrifice lives over politics," so it would make sense that they fight over the same kind of things that Terrans do. You might be right about their lifespan though; kind of interesting that they seem to go for the "attain objective or die trying" philosophy more than Terrans do.

BTW I found out where I got that bit of information; it was from the FS1 species.tbl.  

 

where do you get vasudans live 4for 00 years?

How the heck do they do anything if they live for 00 years?! j/k

[This message has been edited by CP5670 (edited 12-31-2001).]

[Carl]

this is probably not true, it's probably just a boastful myth perpetuated by the Konsu dynasty. The USSR did stuff like that all the time.

[Ace]

Also, the old Vasudan regime was parliamentary (democratic) in some ways and it is pretty rare to have a democratic government fall in favor of a monarchy. I think that the VPE was similar to one of these pseudo- democracies found in some "rogue nations" today, where it looks like a democracy from the outset but the military is actually running the whole show and elections are stage-managed by the army.

The Vasudan Parliament itself was what was corrupt and known for byzantine politics.

The PVN however was more then likely the "innocent bystander" in this, driven into the V-T war and internal disputes by the Parliament.

On the 10,000 year dynasty of Khonsu, we do know that Vasudan culture is built arround the emporer. There seems not to be dissidence against the emporer's name, but perhaps his policies, and generally rogue actions are taken in his name since they believe it better serves him. (Admiral Ahmose in the FS2 main campaign seems close to this)

It could be a reaction to the Parliament's several-decades of tyranny however.



------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[diamondgeezer]

I'll put money on there being something in the game that states "Vasudan society is older than Terran society".

For one thing, the Vasudans were given a kick-start by the Ancients (yes, I'm courting controversy here, I know), although I firmly believe our world was given a helping hand too... that's Von Daniken for you  

[Starwing]

 

Originally posted by diamondgeezer:
Von Daniken

  I wouldn't believe this guy if he told me that Earth is a sphere.

I'm sure that Vasudan society is older than Terran. And I also think that say had a united government long before Earth had. That's simply because Vasuda Prime is a barely habitable world. They had to cooperate to survive on this rock. Or at least survive and build up a noticeable civilisation.


------------------
You guys are still strange...

[diamondgeezer]

Oh dear God, I hope its a sphere, or my geology degree just went up sh1t creak

[Red5]

  In my upcoming game Mod for Star Trek Armada (YES ITS THE FIRST EVER FS RTS)!!
 In the late 2330's the vasudan emperor Khonsu the II finds out about PVE support for HOL funding and dismantles them completely.  He instead reorganizes it into a GVA.  The Rogue PVE teams up with HOL forces and fight a short lived civil war while the Terrans must hold off the reorganized Shivan forces on their own.  

[WMCoolmon]

Nice plot, I like it  

[CP5670]

I think the PVN was actually controlled by Khonsu II's family though. ("The Vasudan government is parliamentary in nature, but is presided over by the Imperial family...") The Vasudan people, led by Khonsu II (who might have been in hiding from his family until then) overthrew the parliament and established the Imperium, so the "emperor" probably changes every now and then with the twists and turns of politics.

   

Nice plot, I like it    

Hey check this out: (major p1mp excerpt from a command briefing in my campaign, but I simply couldn't help it            )

(just ignore the $h/$f/$b tags)

   

$b GVD $b Sekham
$b Polaris $b System $b - $b 0940 $b SGT, $b December $b 21, $b 2368

This is Admiral Mesirut speaking, commanding officer of the $f GVD $f Sekham. I would like to extend a welcome to all of the new recruits joining our forces here in Polaris.

As you all know, Polaris used to be a system under the control of the hostile $h Neo-Terran $h Front. After the rout of the $h NTF regime a year ago, $f GTVA Command began the process of rebuilding allied military forces in Sirius, Regulus and Polaris. The $f Sekham is a newly commissioned $f GTVA Hatshepsut class destroyer and has been designated as flasghip of the $f 15th $f Vasudan $f Battle $f Group in Polaris. Our upcoming operations in this sector will be carried out jointly with the Epsilon Pegasi-based $f 6th $f Terran $f Fleet.


$b Procyon $b Confederal $b Autonomy

In the last few months the rogue administration known as the $h Procyon $h Confederal $h Autonomy has become a serious threat to both the military power and the political influence of the $f GTVA. On January 6, 2368, Admiral Hiruk Dasmar, former commander of the $f GTVA $f 10th $f Vasudan $f Battle $f Group in the Procyon system, launched an extensive anti-GTVA propaganda campaign throughout the system. A failing economy in Procyon and some of the neighboring systems due to the drain on $f GTVA resources in the last fourteen months, a direct result of the recent conflicts with $h NTF and $h Shivan forces, allowed Dasmar's views to gain support rapidly. On June 17, the regional governments of Procyon and Adhara formally announced their secession from the $f Galactic $f Terran-Vasudan $f Alliance. Less than one week later, the birth of a new authority in these systems was announced: the $h Procyon $h Confederal $h Autonomy (PCA), with the former fleet Admiral proclaimed as the leader.


$b Procyon $b Confederal $b Autonomy $b (continued)

Admiral Dasmar is one of the greatest and most forceful public orators history has seen and is famous for holding gigantic assemblies on planetary centers of population, where he shouts out his ideas to millions of fanatical citizens. He is also explicitly against the $f GTVA and has on numerous occasions stated that the $f GTVA is a ''regime that runs solely on treachery and corruption and completely ignores the pleas of the people.'' He has also denounced prominent $f GTVA leaders such as Emperor Khonsu II as ''tyrannical despots.'' His long-term goals, aside from the eventual eradication of the $f GTVA, are not clearly known at the time. Furthermore all attempts to negotiate terms with him have failed.

To his followers, which number in the tens of billions of both Terrans and Vasudans, Dasmar is known simply as The Leader.


$b Procyon $b Confederal $b Autonomy $b (continued)

When the $h PCA first came into being the $f GTVA did not immediately react by military force since Dasmar's ideas were spreading to other systems like wildfire and an attack on the $h PCA systems would only cause anti-GTVA sentiments to arise in other systems, which would lead to an eventual downfall of the $f GTVA. Recently however, although the $h PCA has not officially declared a state of war on the $f GTVA, fierce fighting has taken place in Epsilon Pegasi with several units from the $f 6th $f Fleet supporting the Confederal cause. Violent demonstrations and riots against the $f GTVA have occured and pose a major threat to allied control over the system.

This madness will not be allowed to go any further. Traitors are not to be tolerated. The $f GTVA $f Security $f Council has drawn up a plan to put an end to the $h PCA navy by using military might and the $f 15th $f Battle $f Group will play a pivotal role.


$b GVD $b Sekham $b Orientation

The $f GVD $f Sekham is a standard Hatshepsut-class destroyer with armaments that include eight flak guns, nine VA anti-fighter beam cannons, four BV anti-capital ship beam cannons and numerous turrets and missile launchers. The ship carries a crew of 10,000 of the most capable and dedicated Vasudan pilots and officers enlisted in the $f GTVA today. The $f Sekham is home to over 15 squadrons and all standard Vasudan fighter and bomber craft can be found inside the ship's spacious hangars. The vessel is stocked with the latest $f GTVA technology in weaponry, including such weapons as the GTW-66 Maxim cannon and the GTM-4a Tornado swarm missile. However, note that the GTW-05 Prometheus S cannon has once again dropped out of production due to the shortage of argon that came up shortly after the Capella system was sealed off. With the advent of newer weaponry, the older GTW-05a Prometheus R and the GTM-4 Hornet have also been phased out of the modern GTVA arsenal.


$b GTW-24 $b APDU $b Vulcan $b Cannon

A next-generation weapon has completed its OpEval period and is now being distributed among $f GTVA fleets: the GTW-24 APDU Vulcan Cannon. The GTW-24 is a high-speed projectile cannon with a very high rate of fire, similar to the weapons used in both Terran and Vasudan intraplanetary wars over 300 years ago. Unlike these however, instead of using a chambered combustion reaction, the APDU Vulcan uses an array of powerful electromagnets to propel its superheated uranium shells toward its target. The Vulcan is very effective against armor and hull plating. It is not nearly as powerful as the Maxim cannon but can be loaded with almost any Terran or Vasudan fighter in the $f GTVA and also does some damage to shielding due to the high-temperature nature of its projectiles. Use the APDU Vulcan at your discretion.

That is all. We arrive in Epsilon Pegasi in eight hours. Report for your mission briefings at that time.

Okay, maybe that was too much of a p1mp...        

[This message has been edited by CP5670 (edited 01-01-2002).]

[Ace]

Not bad of a plot there, but I would change the name of the Vulcan gun only because even Volition changed all of the "Descent names" out of FS...  

------------------
Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[CP5670]

hehe, yeah it is somewhat similar to the Vulcan cannon used in Descent 1/2. Maybe I should change that; the APDU (armor-piercing depleted uranium) part was dropped in there but the "Vulcan" remained. I guess I'm not too creative with these things...

ah well, at least the other two weapons in the campaign have more innovative names. (GTM MX-75 Thunder and GTW-81 Phalanx)

[Crazy_Ivan80]

 

Originally posted by CP5670:
hehe, yeah it is somewhat similar to the Vulcan cannon used in Descent 1/2. Maybe I should change that; the APDU (armor-piercing depleted uranium) part was dropped in there but the "Vulcan" remained. I guess I'm not too creative with these things...    

ah well, at least the other two weapons in the campaign have more innovative names.     (GTM MX-75 Thunder and GTW-81 Phalanx)

Actually I like the Vulcan-name for your new cannon... but you'll have to keep that reference to our current day Vulcan in place.

Nice p1mping! Now I'm curious about the rest of the campaign. Keep up the good work.

Now about the original question of Khonsu II being the Heir of a 10.000 year old dynasty.
Actually he could very well the heir to such a dynasty if you change your definition of 'dynasty' slightly.

First we notice the time-span. Approximatly 10.000 years ago the Ancients were wiped out (actually it's less: 8000 if I'm right), but we don't really know for how long the Ancients really fought the Shivans; and we also know that the Ancients probably visited the Vasudans at some point in their history so that might be considered as the start of the dynastic rule on Vasuda.

A second posibility is that we don't know ow long a Vasudan year really is.

Thirdly, and that one is vital no matter what, is the adapted definition of 'dynasty'. With this definition all Emperors are considered to be of the same dynasty even if they are from different families. It is a bit like the old Mesopotamian system of Kingship. In that system the title of 'king' went from city to city (after battle or some other significan event) but the lineage was never (mentally) interrupted. That's why the old Mesopotamian kinklists go something like this: 'Firstly the kingship descended from the heavens to the city of Eridu where it stayed during the reigh of seven kings equalling 2000 years (like all civilisations they liked to exaggerate), then it was passed on to the city of Nippur where it stayed for 500 years or the reign of 4 kings....'


now I hope this makes any sense to you  

[Starwing]

 

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
That's why the old Mesopotamian kinklists go something like this: 'Firstly the kingship descended from the heavens to the city of Eridu where it stayed during the reigh of seven kings equalling 2000 years (like all civilisations they liked to exaggerate), then it was passed on to the city of Nippur where it stayed for 500 years or the reign of 4 kings....'

Modern scientists tend to the opinion that those "years" actually have been "moon years", so 2000 years would actually be 2000 months, 166 solar years. Of course that would be quite few for seven kings, but what do we really know about the lifespan of a mesopotamian king.

[This message has been edited by Starwing (edited 01-05-2002).]

[Crazy_Ivan80]

 

Originally posted by Starwing:
 Modern scientists tend to the opinion that those "years" actually have been "moon years", so 2000 years would actually be 2000 months, 166 solar years. Of course that would be quite few for seven kings, but what do we really know about the lifespan of a mesopotamian king.

[This message has been edited by Starwing (edited 01-05-2002).]

I was just giving an example as I don't know the exact contents of the kinglists. About the lifespan of those kiings I'm unsure too; I do know however that those long lifespans are mostly attributed to the legendary/mythological kings of Mesopotamia, but if those are 'moon-years' I can't say.

  It's a shame I can't find my topic about possible Ancient-Vasudan on the VBB anymore. It was rather nice as it used all available and canon data from FS, FS2 and the FS Reference Bible. Ah well....

[CP5670]

I was also thinking that Vasudan years might be much shorter than Earth, but they would have to be a lot shorter to make this feasible.

The dynasty issue you brought up makes quite a bit of sense but even if different families are taken into account, I think that Vasudan governments come and went throughout the course of history and its politics as did Terran ones. Still, it would make sense if the Vasudan year was far shorter (maybe 1/50 ) of a Terran year.

 

It's a shame I can't find my topic about possible Ancient-Vasudan on the VBB anymore. It was rather nice as it used all available and canon data from FS, FS2 and the FS Reference Bible. Ah well....

Yeah it's too bad they performed that server wipe recently. They should have just gotten rid of the TAS and TWNBAFS3 topics; those two probably accounted for over half of the used server space.

Also, thanks for the compliments on that plot. I put up a 7-mission (out of 12) "demo" here a few days ago; you can grab it here: http://wind.prohosting.com/cp5670/PItest.zip

[Crazy_Ivan80]

not necessarily 1/50 of a terran year...

It depends on two possibilities:
-are the Vasudans exaggerating a bit.
-or when did the Ancients visit Vasuda Prime.

[karajorma]

There is a second possibility. The translator might refer to a year as 365 vasudan days.
 Jupiter for instance revolves every 10 hours so if Vasuda Prime did the same 10,000 years would be closer to 4,000 earth years.