Author Topic: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...  (Read 17270 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...


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Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline Scuddie

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
who ever put jewishness into question anyways?
I second that.  Why has this thread derailed? *Stares at Atheist*

Anyway Sandwich, with all due respect...  WTF are you talking about?!  When it's the Israeli Military that bulldozes civilian buildings, uses civilian meat shields, and murders palestenians, your idea of 'blanket statements' goes out the window.  Hell, if you were stationed in a particular division of the Israeli Military, I'd ask "How many Palestenian kids did you shoot in the back in order to get that promotion?"...  But I don't know enough about you to decide whether or not you are, so I wont ask that question.  Maybe after the Zionists...  I mean Military stop with their actions, maybe then the palestenians wont be feeding anti-Islamic propaganda, lots of which is partially true.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
who ever put jewishness into question anyways?
I second that.  Why has this thread derailed? *Stares at Atheist*

Anyway Sandwich, with all due respect...  WTF are you talking about?!  When it's the Israeli Military that bulldozes civilian buildings, uses civilian meat shields, and murders palestenians, your idea of 'blanket statements' goes out the window.  Hell, if you were stationed in a particular division of the Israeli Military, I'd ask "How many Palestenian kids did you shoot in the back in order to get that promotion?"...  But I don't know enough about you to decide whether or not you are, so I wont ask that question.  Maybe after the Zionists...  I mean Military stop with their actions, maybe then the palestenians wont be feeding anti-Islamic propaganda, lots of which is partially true.

Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government. 

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Hamas also manages hospitals and schools, to treat wounded palestinians and educate the children (not 100% with hate propoganda, there's some math in there too).  one of the reasons theyre popular with the arabs is because they do quite a bit to help out the average palestinian.  they, unfortunately, also do bombings on the side.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Hamas also manages hospitals and schools, to treat wounded palestinians and educate the children (not 100% with hate propoganda, there's some math in there too).  one of the reasons theyre popular with the arabs is because they do quite a bit to help out the average palestinian.  they, unfortunately, also do bombings on the side.

I'm well aware of the humanitarian activities of Hamas - I remember pointing it out earlier (elsewhere) in the hope that their election was not a vote for further bloodshed - but at the same time you can't just divorce their terrorist/murderous activities, and it's certainly not a little bit on the side but part of their definining identity.  Hamas have, after all, had the opportunity to renounce violence now they have political power and influence, and they have not.

 

Offline Scuddie

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government. 
So Sharon's logic there is that because a few Palestenian extremists murdered our civilians, I will use the arm of my government to murder your civilians.  I see.  No wonder Iran loves Israel so much :).
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
The only reason the Palestians didn't do all of the above, first, is that they don't have bulldozers.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Without making a personal judgement, I'm sure Sandwich would point out that a lot of this comes in response to the deliberate targeting and thus murder of civillians by Palestinian terrorist organisations, including one which now forms the government. 
So Sharon's logic there is that because a few Palestenian extremists murdered our civilians, I will use the arm of my government to murder your civilians.  I see.  No wonder Iran loves Israel so much :).

Mmm.... that would be an oversimplification.  It's not a course of action I believe works, but I understand the logic due to the old IRA campaigns.  Essentially, it's the use of troops as a police force, raiding houses, etc, alongside retroactive punishment by destroying suicide bombers' houses (as often foreign benefactors will reward suicide bombers' families with cash). 

For the most part, and simply by dint that there are Palestinians alive, it's obvious there is not an explicit plan to kill Palestinian civvies.  That does not mean they give fair regard/value to said civillians lives, or that it's proportionate force to use M-16s against stone-throwing kids, but I'd say there is a world of difference between accidental deaths and the intentional, ordered and sole targeting of civillians.

Unfortunately, I'd also say that world of difference is pretty much eroded by a) the sheer number of civillians killed (and apparent disregard for that) and b) the number of troops who do murder, and go relatively unpunished for it (the guy who shot and killed a British journalist springs to mind).  I view neither side as better than the other, just wrong in different ways, and the key to peace is to right both wrongs.  Somehow.

In any case, the Palestinian arguement is equally wrong when put into these types of simple terms - the Israeli army kills Palestinian civillians, so they go out and murder similarly innocent Israelis.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
In all the years I have been a member of HLP I have never seen a political debate, or any debate in general, as ****ty as this one.

I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline aceofspades

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
I don't know if it's worth getting into this one for me. Especially considering I'm

1. Israeli
2. More critical of Israeli politics/military stance than some non-Israelis.

Anyway, whoever thinks Israel is purposly shelling Gaza beaches to murder civilians should go guillotine themselves and then walk around a few times showing their severedhead to everyone. Israelis couldn't care less. Killing civilian Palestinians serves no purpose for Israel.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Israelis couldn't care less.

And there you've hit the nail on the head. That is the Israeli government's opinion on killing civilians. They really don't care about civilian casualties as long as they aren't enough to cause worldwide outrage. If you don't believe that answer me this one question. What military target was on that beach?
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Israelis couldn't care less.

And there you've hit the nail on the head. That is the Israeli government's opinion on killing civilians. They really don't care about civilian casualties as long as they aren't enough to cause worldwide outrage.

That's certainly how it feels to me; it seems that protecting Palestinian civillian lives are very, very, very low down on the scale of concerns for the IDF.

If you don't believe that answer me this one question. What military target was on that beach?

The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza.  As Israel haven't accepted responsibility (to be fair, we can't definitively know anyways, as there are also landmines and old munitions on that beach, both of which have been blamed for it), it's hard to know exactly what was being aimed at.

Frankly, using naval artillery for that purpose seems idiotic - literal overkill - but there you go.

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza.

How convinient that the militants happened to be sitting on the beach in plain view of a ship anchored off the coast while waving a flag saying "We are palestinian terrorists" then.

Like I said they really don't care if their indiscriminate shelling does kill civilians. The only time they do care with when they kill enough that it bites them on the arse like in this case.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
As the old addage goes,
"Give them enough rope"
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
The claim was that they were routinely targeting rocket-firing militants in North Gaza.

How convinient that the militants happened to be sitting on the beach in plain view of a ship anchored off the coast while waving a flag saying "We are palestinian terrorists" then.

Like I said they really don't care if their indiscriminate shelling does kill civilians. The only time they do care with when they kill enough that it bites them on the arse like in this case.

Well, to be fair here, it's unclear if they were actually aiming at the beach itself.  That is not a defense of it (shelling), of course.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Then question becomes what were they aiming at?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Giving us subject matter to rant/flame/debate over at the moment i guess...
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Then question becomes what were they aiming at?

Um, somewhere else?  I don't have a map, natch, so can't even begin to speculate.

Apparently they target open areas in general, which seems remarkably stupid/careless/callous.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...

I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.

well frak you.

somebody's got to stand up for the little guy
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Beach shelled, Israel not sure if they did it...
Apparently they target open areas in general, which seems remarkably stupid/careless/callous.

That's my point. The tactic that the IDF appear to be using is that if they routinely shell wide open areas the terrorists won't go there to launch rocket attacks on them.

Which pretty much proves my point that they really don't give a damn about killing civilians.
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