[Colonol Dekker]

In all honesty if i heard about an area getting routinely shelled, i would avoid it...........

[aldo_14]

In all honesty if i heard about an area getting routinely shelled, i would avoid it...........

Except if you're working in any sort of agrarian area, you don't have a choice, or you'll starve.  So all you can do is go out and hope they don't misfire and overshoot their current target (i.e. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4910810.stm).  I have to admit seeing some parallels to Sarajevo in it.

[Colonol Dekker]

It would save me ploughing it 

[karajorma]

I find this comment the most telling.

"As long as calm does not prevail on the Israeli side, neither will it do so on the Palestinian side," Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said this week. "Our operations are going to intensify."

In other words as long as the rocket attacks keep coming we're going to keep indicriminately shelling Gaza in the hope of causing them to stop.

 See the problem is that there is a word for indiscriminate attacks on civilians in order to cause political change....

[Mr. Vega]

I recommend Turambar be banned from these discussions at least until he learns ****ing basic grammar and spelling for christ sake.

well frak you.

somebody's got to stand up for the little guy

By the little guy, do you mean your own idiot ego, or the lives of Palestinians which you know nothing about, but you're going to argue for anyway?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

somebody's got to stand up for the little guy

indeed, someone must stand up for Israel, a couple million jews surrounded by hundreds of millions of jew-hating muslims.

[Turambar]

i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.

please don't make it personal.

[aldo_14]

i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.

please don't make it personal.

Does that include the ones who go out and slaughter innocent Israelis?

[TrashMan]

Both sides do s***, but only one side get's the blessing from a official government.

Palestinian terrorists = loose group of fanatics over which you DON'T have control, so you can't blame the Palestinian state for whatever they do

Isreali Army = something controled by the government and so every fu** up it does is the governments and the states fault.

[NGTM-1R]

Frankly, using naval artillery for that purpose seems idiotic - literal overkill - but there you go.

IIRC the biggest guns in the possesion of the Israeli Navy are OTO-Melara Compact 76mm. (That's not even decent ante as landbased artillery goes, everyone uses at least 105mm now.) It's also worth noting that naval artillery is inherently more accurate (it's designed to hit point targets, whereas army artillery is actually designed for a degree of inaccuracy; works better that way) and thus better suited for counterbattery fire. If that's what they were doing.

Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.

[Turambar]

Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.

the US government supports israel, and israel has killed far more innocents than the palestinians, they just do it with troops.  the US supports terror, will you abandon them?

[NGTM-1R]

the US government supports israel, and israel has killed far more innocents than the palestinians, they just do it with troops.  the US supports terror, will you abandon them?

Let me summarize here.

IRRELEVANT TO MY ARGUMENT.

[Turambar]

is it?  you say that trashman should abandon his post because Hamas supports terrorism.  I'm saying you should abandon yours because Israel does worse, and does so with the backing of the nation trying to "bring democracy to the world".

[TrashMan]

Trashman: Remember who's running the Palestinian government now? Yeah. Hamas. They approve terrorism. I'd abandon that last post real fast.

And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?

[aceofspades]

Actually, I think that the average Israeli citizen does care about Palestinian civilians getting killed.

[NGTM-1R]

is it?  you say that trashman should abandon his post because Hamas supports terrorism.  I'm saying you should abandon yours because Israel does worse, and does so with the backing of the nation trying to "bring democracy to the world".

Abandon my post. Riiiight. I point out that Trashman is basically spewing garbage (how appropriate), and made no mention of the US at all. Nothing in my post even relates to the US. (Okay, perhaps very very tenous link via the fact that some US ships also mount the type of gun mentioned...but it's made in Italy.) Your argument is, was, and remains totally irrevelant to the points of my post. I refuse to engage in this battle of wits any further; you're clearly unarmed.

And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?

Claiming responsiblity isn't proof enough for you? The PLO did that quite a bit as well. The PLO at least made an attempt to seperate itself from its roots, though. Hamas has done no such thing.

[Mars]

And before Hamas? Or is any palestinian government a terrorist supporter (without any real proof mind you)?

I have no real proof, but I would place a fair wager that Hamas has had connections to the Palesinian government for quite a while

[Crazy_Ivan80]

i mean the thousands of palestinians who had their homes and land stolen and are being repressed and slaughtered, backed by the 'champion of freedom,' the USA.

I see you buy the arab bull**** propaganda about Israel.
Being slaughtered is what happened in Rwanda, not what happens in Palestine. Frankly, given the situation the Israelis have showed remarkable restraint, immense restraint event (as evidence by the ever larger number of palestinians in existance). If it were arabs, chinese or russians instead of israelis I doubt we'd be having a palestinian question, cause there wouldn't be any palestinian left in the region.
Their homes and land stolen, we'll tought luck. Muslims stole jewish land and homes too, from Morocco all the way to Iran. And you can bet your granny on it that what the muslims stole has quite a bit more value too.

Again, maybe the arab nations should be working to integrate the palestinian refugees they have instead of letting them languish (for the 3rd generation already) on their lands while using them as a cynical tool for oppression and to legitimise anti-semitism.

That said, I have nothing more to say to you as it's clear where you stand.

[Turambar]

RESTRAINT!! THEY ****ING INVADED!

you obviously are getting incomplete history lessons

[aldo_14]

RESTRAINT!! THEY ****ING INVADED!

you obviously are getting incomplete history lessons

Ok, calm down.

You can also place those invasions within the context of Arab nations threatening Israel, such as was seen immediately after the state was formed in the 1948 war; for example the West Bank being captured during the 6-Day War in 1967 (which there is a strong arguement for being caused by Arab actions, such the operations of Syrian supported Fedayeen in Israel and an Egyptian blockade).

Plus - and more importantly - 'restraint' is being characterised here as a response to terrorist actions which are either implictly or explcitly (now) supported by the Palestinian government.  The intimation is that the Israelis have the capacity to out-and-out obliterate the Palestinian population in response, but do not.