Author Topic: Scary abortion bill in Ohio  (Read 8266 times)

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Offline Deepblue

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
The point is, it should be up to the states to decide the issue.

Why?

According to the Tenth Amendment, the federal government does not have the authority to regulate abortion.

Edit:  Well, to the above, as far as I remember, if it's not national security or interstate commerce, it's supposed to be left to state and local.   Not that that's every stopped fedgov, but that was the general plan.

Precisely.

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Or are you saying that the definition of personhood under the Constitution is subject to the interpretation of the states? That doesn't make any sense at all. It isn't the job of state legislatures to interpret the Constitution.

All right. Show me the passage where it defines personhood. Hmm? What's that? It doesn't!

It's remitted to the states then.
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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
It's not the direct answer, but:

Quote
FETAL PERSONHOOD

An important part of the abortion debate is when the fetus achieves personhood. However, due to the conflation of two or more meanings of the word "person," the issue appears unresolvable. In one sense of "person," any human organism is a person. In other senses, a "person" is a moral or legal designation that generally is assumed to carry with it the right to life. In the United States, this would mean at what point does the fetus gain the rights described in the constitution.

Under English and United States common law, personhood has long been regarded as coming into being at the moment of live birth.
In England, the 1989 case of R v Tait confirmed this legal view.

Many people on the "pro-choice" side of the abortion argument believe that a fetus should achieve legal personhood only after birth, or at least after it is viable, or can live for a sustained period outside the mother with assistance from life support. A fetus is generally considered viable 24 weeks after conception. Some proponents of this point of view would argue that the fetus is no different from an appendage of the mother, because, like an organ, the fetus cannot live if removed.

Many people on the "pro-life" side of the abortion argument believe that legal personhood begins at conception. Proponents of this point of view point to the development of the fetus as evidence of its human personhood. For example, after 18 days a fetus's heart begins to beat. After 42 days brain waves are recorded and reflexes are observed. After 8 weeks, if you poke a fetus's hand with a sharp object, it will withdraw its hand and open its mouth. After 18 weeks it can cry.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
this thread needs a nihilist touch.

first of all we all know when ever a politician speaks of abortion its really just to get elected/votes/higher aproval ratings. simply preach its abolition to the right and rant about the right to choice to the left. its really like people who play bf2 fighting over the planes, or script kiddies who loiter around irc chellels tring to score op status. political childishness is by far a bigger problem than abortion. theres always more important issues, but its sick when little issues that involve only one psedo-life take precidence over issues of larger scope.

that said i have a views on abortion, il start with the least offensive one in hopes you will read my whole post. people pick ineffieteint solutions to simple problems, or delay in making a desicion and thus cut off your options. starting with rape, if a woman is raped, it is her responsibility to report it immediatley so that they may be treated with the "rape kit".. you see we have theese things called morning after pills. it takes about 3 days for sperm to travel to the egg, taking the morning after pill prevents the egg andsperm from fusing (or at least create an invironment where the embryo cannot form). even with an embryo theres no guarantee of a feotus, its an iffy thing as it is, so i dont consider preventing an embryo from forming murder, unlike say aborting in the 2nd or 3rd trimester.  morning after pills stop the problem before it becomes a life. women who report rape early can also be prevented from getting aids as well through the use of anti-retroviral medication. so there are many reasons rape should be reported asap. this should be explained in sex education, never have i been in a sex ed class that explained this.

morning after pills are a solution for when contraception fails, a rubber breaks, or you forgot your birth control pill. theres no reason an accidental pregnancy should occure. sex demands responsibility, so people who are irresponsible shouldnt be having sex.  people who fail to use contraception dispite not wanting a child deserve not only to have an abortion but rather be forced to and sterilised for being stupid and attempting to pass their stupid genes down the line. likewise (while it has nothing to do with abortion) women who get knocked up on purpose so that they may collect welfare and child support and thus get a free ride in life should be shot, hung, and shot again, sex as a manipulation tool should not be tolerated. along this line rapists should get the death penalty, to reduce the need to want an abortion, we dont need rapist genes in the genepool. rape babies are prone to mental problems and when this mingles with rapist geenes it creates more potential rapeists. when both nature and nurture say the same thing, you know what will happen.

abortion should be legal if done immediately by prevention of embryonic formation, or if thats not possible before the feotal stage. if the baby has fewer neurons that a cray supercomputer has transistors, its probibly safe to assume sentience hasnt developed yet. of course you religious types will argue about the soul forming at conception. in reality you have no idea how soul formation occures or works. maybe your texts explain this. for you the soul is just what you call that what you fail to understand about the human essence. i perfer to go by a reasonable analasis, that the essence of a human is definded by the neurologial patterns operating through physical, electrical, chemical, and quantum level processes. if theese processes arent suffietiently developed, then conciousness cannot be confirmed.

as for the "how would you feel if your mother had an abortion with you" question. id feel alright about it, it would probibly be better off for everyone, but of course she didnt because otherwise she couldnt have collected welfare all her life.

...and death to those of you who think im kidding
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 02:48:24 am by Nuke »
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Offline Mars

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
I think third trimester is too late for an abortion. If you can get the kid out, and they're still alive, it's a person in my book. First, sure go get an abortion. Second is where I'm fuzzy on.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
B:How would you feel if your Mother had a Abortion with you?

i wouldnt, thats the beauty of being nipped before youre conscious

So you rather be a bunch of dead cells then a walking and talking person? It doesn`t matter if your conscious or not. It`s what those cells will turn into is what concerns me. Imagine one of those babies being a great leader or someone who cured the common cold.
But unfortuntly he/shes mother had to much fun one night and wanted to kill the poor thing because it was inconvienit (sp?).


Technically, he wouldn't have a say in the matter any more than the trillions of sperm+egg combinations that also never arise.  Plus, bringing up the 'imagine those cells' arguement is patently ridiculous; imagine those cells were the next Hitler or Pol Pot?

The ability to dream is not human? A baby starts dreaming and forming thoughts in only about 70 days.

Having deleted the 3 prior and irrelevant strawmans, I'd like you to cite a source for that, because in all I have read it's simply not true.  Brain wave patterns do not form until 21 weeks.  (moreso, I'd be inclined to ask exactly what a foetus could dream of at 70 days, what with the lack of any sensory input whatsoever)

Next, I'd move on to the UN and the European Union. Soon the world will be free from all evil.

so you're citing, what, current UN whipping boys like Iran or North Korea as beacons of good?

I feel like killing someone. And since you convinced me to believe to doing whatever the frak I want, I think I'll start now, especially since I don't believe its murder. People who don't believe in murder don't do it, simple as that, but they shouldn't stop me from my right to jab a knife in someones face.

Irelevant strawman.  Murder is a 2 part action, where the 'victim' party is clearly defined to be conscious and self-aware, i.e. the characteristics that assign value to human life.

Or, you can extend the analogy, remove the importance of thought/sentience (the human distinguishing factor which leads us to value our lives) and eating an egg is the same as infanticide.

I think third trimester is too late for an abortion. If you can get the kid out, and they're still alive, it's a person in my book. First, sure go get an abortion. Second is where I'm fuzzy on.

24 weeks is where most/many countries place limits, except to save the mother.  Conscious thought is tagged at 21/22 weeks, although even then that is actually prior to the formation of fully working (in particular) lungs.  Although premature babies IIRC have been born alive prior to 24 weeks, they are prone to developmental defects (such as severe disability) and also very few ever survive to leave intensive care.

 
Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Quote
24 weeks is where most/many countries place limits, except to save the mother.

Exceptuating countries which totally forbid and consider abort illegally under any cirscunstance. Though there are a few countries, they are not to be ignored.

Rape is one of the usual arguments to validate abortion, though I can't tell in which ones, some countries consider incest too.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 03:35:58 am by Shadow0000 »

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Quote
24 weeks is where most/many countries place limits, except to save the mother.

Exceptuating countries which totally forbid and consider abort illegally under any cirscunstance. Though there are a few contries, they are not to be ignored.

Rape is one of the usual arguments to validate abortion, though I can't tell in which ones, some countries consider incest too.

I can't help but feel obliged to mention as a matter of interest the likes of Nigeria, which does that yet has a higher abortion rate than much of europe (* +).  The real impact of illegalising abortion in most countries would seem to be simply increasing maternal deaths in botched 'back alley' abortions.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Personally, I believe this law goes too far. However, I believe someone who willingly has intercourse and is impregnated should take responsibility for their actions. I also believe the father should have some say in the matter.

Kindly explain to me why aborting the feotus in a woman who was raped isn't murder but aborting it in one who chose to have sex is?
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
am i the only one who finds it amusing to call eggs for breakfest "delicious chicken abortions"?  just a thought.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
This law sounds like natural selection's tool for weeding out bad mothers.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
am i the only one who finds it amusing to call eggs for breakfest "delicious chicken abortions"?  just a thought.

I call them fried foetal fancies, myself.

Maybe that explains the odd looks I keep getting in cafes, though.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Personally, I believe this law goes too far. However, I believe someone who willingly has intercourse and is impregnated should take responsibility for their actions. I also believe the father should have some say in the matter.

Kindly explain to me why aborting the feotus in a woman who was raped isn't murder but aborting it in one who chose to have sex is?

I've always asked that question to people who support abortion only for rape, usually they just talk in circles until they tell me it's none of my buisness

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Personally, I believe this law goes too far. However, I believe someone who willingly has intercourse and is impregnated should take responsibility for their actions. I also believe the father should have some say in the matter.

Kindly explain to me why aborting the feotus in a woman who was raped isn't murder but aborting it in one who chose to have sex is?

I've always asked that question to people who support abortion only for rape, usually they just talk in circles until they tell me it's none of my buisness

In reality, they just think it's good punishment for 'immorality' to force a women to have an unplanned child.  Quite often verging on the every sperm is sacred territory, I think.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
for eugenics sake abort thr rape babys! rapists should not be allowd to procreate. i take no sides in the nature / nurture argument as both sides have merit. to say one means more than the other is lunacy. when somone has both the genes of a rapist and grew up in a loveless home because they were the spawn of terror, the rape baby has a good chance of following in their fathers footsteps. so by alowing abortion in case of rape, youre supporting evolution. you can say the same thing about abortion in case of stupidity, but sence stupidity is a less offensive crime. you can instead of abort the feotus, say impose mandatory marriage between the idiots that didnt use a rubber, or abort and sterilize the both of them. to be fair, let them choose.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2006, 04:34:41 pm by Nuke »
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
for eugenics sake abort thr rape babys! rapists should not be allowd to procreate. i take no sides in the nature / nurture argument as both sides have merit. to say one means more than the other is lunacy. when somone has both the genes of a rapist and grew up in a loveless home because they were the spawn of terror, the rape baby has a good chance of following in their fathers footsteps. so by alowing abortion in case of rape, youre supporting evolution. you can say the same thing about abortion in case of stupidity, but sence stupidity is a less offensive crime. you can instead of abort the feotus, say impose mandatory marriage between the idiots that didnt use a rubber, or abort and sterilize the both of them. to be fair, let them choose.

That is complete bollocks, really, and I presume it's just stirring-up-ness in the same sense as 'nuke the world' etc.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
for eugenics sake

Eugenics is a horrific, stupid idea. Please don't say things like "supporting evolution" about eugenics. That's not what evolution is. It's not even close. You're twisting the ideas of generations of scientists to support a lunatic, inhumane idea.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
That is one of the stupidest arguements i've heard since TrashMan debated the inclusion of Battleships in the FS universe (:p).

I debated the posiblity of existacne of Battleship inside the confines and rules of the FS universe...adn it wasn't stupid by a long shot..well, not as much as you anyway:D

------------
ON TOPIC:

Iffy issue...You have to come to an agreement when life does being, when a person really becomes a person. Technicly speaking, a young fetus doesn't have a brean to speak of, but it might have a soul...

Either way, a subject I'd rather keep awayfrom.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
Prove souls exist.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Scary abortion bill in Ohio
The 'soul' arguement is totally irellevant, because not only is the very existence of a soul debatable, so is the nature and definition of it, and all those things are actually defined solely by the personal and nebulous concept of religion.  And we all know that legislating on the sole (soul - geddit?  hoho) basis of religion is clearly wrong and an affront to those who believe differently.