Author Topic: torture in Iraq  (Read 7655 times)

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Offline Mefustae

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And do you really believe that most human behaviour is 'natural cruelty'? Were you raised by wolves or something?
My upbringing by a mother-wolf is none of your business! If it was good enough for Romulus & Remus, it's good enough for me...

...Okay, not really, just in a melodramatic mood. :p

Still, I think you give humanity waaaay too much credit. An individual may be calm, collected and not seek such harsh reparations, but then societally we strive for anonymity within a larger group, where such traits no longer apply. Deep down, we all strive for sweet revenge when we a wronged, and we only restrain ourselves out of fear of reprisal. Isn't the mere presence of that feeling evidence enough that we really don't give a s*** about anyone other than ourselves at heart?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 08:56:59 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline aldo_14

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No we don't.

 

Offline Mefustae

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A dashing rebuttle, sir.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Offline Deepblue

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Has anyone pointed out that this was apparently carried out by an Egyption? So the whole "you invaded their country!!!11222" argument is void. In fact, it seems the major terror elements in Iraq are not from iraq, and consistently kill iraqis.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Has anyone pointed out that this was apparently carried out by an Egyption? So the whole "you invaded their country!!!11222" argument is void. In fact, it seems the major terror elements in Iraq are not from iraq, and consistently kill iraqis.

The vast majority of insurgents are Iraqi, not to mention the ethnic terrorism i.e. sunni vs shia.  Even the Pentagon admits this.  Furthermore, the arguement is still valid as it involves the creation of a state (of affairs) in which foreign elements are welcomed in, or at the very least tolerated, to kill Americans.  There's simply no way any form of terrorist insurgency of this nature could operate without local support - why do you think the US was sending troops into Ramadi?

  

Offline Bobboau

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ok, to all you "oh noes the killed an american now you want revenge" morons. look at my post, I don't particularly care that two american solders were killed, I don't care that they were tortued, all I care about is the fact that we are being forced to fight this war with both hands and a leg tied behind are back, all I hear is *****bich ***** America is tortureing people, and the thing that realy pisses me off is the stuff that is being put up as examples of torture, lack of privacy, sleep depravation, foul language, to this date the worst thing that we have been found to have done (comperably, with prisoners) was Abu Ghraib, what did we do there? we made a few people play naked pirimid, were a leash, and have dogs bark at them (ok, granted there was worse stuff like that, some sort of thing with a pospherous light (but still in comparison that aint that bad) I'm not saying we should let these people off, but you, need to look at the situation more holisticly). all I'm asking for is a truely level playing feild. that means, I want you to have the reaction you had when you read this, if the sides were switched, that's all, I want you to treat me and my people no more harshly than an insurgant/Iraqi/whatever you want to call them. in other words, if you hear a story about an american beating some detainie to death, I want to hear you say "oh, well the Iraqis are doing the same to the americans, no biggie".

I reitterate, my anger is not directed at the people who killed the American solders, basturds they may be this is war, and this sort of thing is expected, my anger is directed at the onesidedness of the critisism. the FIRST thought that poped into my head when I heard this was 'imagine what would have happened if we had done that to them'. I want you to think about that and the differences in your reaction. don't hold us to a higher standard, either lowwer your standard for us or raise theres, you obviusly think us the devil aleady so I don't care anymore. just give us the same curtacy you give them.
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Offline aldo_14

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ok, to all you "oh noes the killed an american now you want revenge" morons. look at my post, I don't particularly care that two american solders were killed, I don't care that they were tortued, all I care about is the fact that we are being forced to fight this war with both hands and a leg tied behind are back, all I hear is *****bich ***** America is tortureing people, and the thing that realy pisses me off is the stuff that is being put up as examples of torture, lack of privacy, sleep depravation, foul language, to this date the worst thing that we have been found to have done (comperably, with prisoners) was Abu Ghraib, what did we do there? we made a few people play naked pirimid, were a leash, and have dogs bark at them (ok, granted there was worse stuff like that, some sort of thing with a pospherous light (but still in comparison that aint that bad) I'm not saying we should let these people off, but you, need to look at the situation more holisticly). all I'm asking for is a truely level playing feild. that means, I want you to have the reaction you had when you read this, if the sides were switched, that's all, I want you to treat me and my people no more harshly than an insurgant/Iraqi/whatever you want to call them. in other words, if you hear a story about an american beating some detainie to death, I want to hear you say "oh, well the Iraqis are doing the same to the americans, no biggie".

I reitterate, my anger is not directed at the people who killed the American solders, basturds they may be this is war, and this sort of thing is expected, my anger is directed at the onesidedness of the critisism. the FIRST thought that poped into my head when I heard this was 'imagine what would have happened if we had done that to them'. I want you to think about that and the differences in your reaction. don't hold us to a higher standard, either lowwer your standard for us or raise theres, you obviusly think us the devil aleady so I don't care anymore. just give us the same curtacy you give them.

I'm sorry you consider the basic rules of war and the conventions upon human rights (already being bent and broken anyways) as tying your hands behind your back.  The US started this war under the banner of bringing freedom and democracy - do you honestly expect people to just stand by whilst crimes are committed under that banner?  I'm pretty sure you've never been forced to undergo water torture, stand upright until you piss and **** yourself, suffered extreme sleep deprivation, etc, otherwise you wouldn't even be trying to defend the indefensible.  Torture in all forms is wrong, full stop.

 

Offline neoterran

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Hmm Ashrak got banned over this ?  :confused:
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Offline TrashMan

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And do you really believe that most human behaviour is 'natural cruelty'? Were you raised by wolves or something?


Wouldn't that make him better behaved than many of the humans, not hte other way around?  :D
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Offline Bobboau

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I'm sorry you consider the basic rules of war and the conventions upon human rights (already being bent and broken anyways) as tying your hands behind your back. 

no, no, you misunderstand, it's that fact that we follow the rules and the people we fight don't even pretend to that I am refering to. if captured Americans were given the same level of treatment we show our captives, like red cross visits, or culturaly sensitive meals, then I wouldn't find the rules you are talking about the least bit of a burden. but that isn't the way things are, is it?

The US started this war under the banner of bringing freedom and democracy - do you honestly expect people to just stand by whilst crimes are committed under that banner?  I'm pretty sure you've never been forced to undergo water torture, stand upright until you piss and **** yourselfdamn near, suffered extreme sleep deprivationdoes 10 hours of sleep in a (7 day) week count?, etc, otherwise you wouldn't even be trying to defend the indefensible.  Torture in all forms is wrong, full stop.

do you honestly think, beeing forced to stand for a day or two, not being allowed to sleep for a week compares to haveing your eyes gouged out, your skin being flailed off and haveing your head sawed off? neither one of us has experienced any of these things, but I think you can clearly see that they are on totaly diferent planes of discomfort.
I know people who have endured the things you have described, I have talked with them, and they agree with me.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Bob, I fully agree with you on this whole issue. Until we can start seeing the same treatment of civilians and American soldiers in Iraq as detainees in Gitmo, then the rest of the world really needs to keep its mouth quiet about human rights violations. The USA can't even do anything at Gitmo worthy of giving the insurgents something to be afraid of without getting lectures from the EU.

What we put the detainees through at Gitmo is really nothing more than any special ops personnel or airmen go through during their training. They're trained to answer name, rank and serial number; nothing more. What they're not trained to resist is having their skin peeled off, burned away, and their body mutilated as the insurgency in Iraq does. America is relatively standing by the Geneva Convention, while the insurgency doesn't even acknowledge it. The military has to fight with reasonable civility while the insurgency fights with dirty terror tactics.
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Offline Shade

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The thing is the US claims to be civilized. Being civilized and treating people in accordance with human rights (especially when they've not yet been found guilty of any crimes, as is the case for approximately 100% of gitmo detainees) goes hand in hand. You can't be one without doing the other.

So it basically comes down to this: Is the US a civilized country that is prepared to stand up for freedom and human rights, or is the US in reality a totalitarian state that's prapared to thrown those things down drain whenever it's convenient? I'd like to believe the former, and so far still do, but I'm starting to have doubts.
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Offline Turambar

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just because they don't have moral standards doesnt mean we should give up ours.
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Offline Shade

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I just hope it won't take another Battle of Solferino for the governments of the world, and the US inparticular, to remember why it is important to have the protections that are currently in place.
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Offline Nuclear1

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It's still not the same. The insurgents fighting this war are essentially making Guantanamo what it is; refusing to abide by any international law in terms of treatment of POWs is leading civilians and guilty insurgents alike being thrown into Gitmo. If there were a clearly defined enemy in Iraq, it would certainly be easier to determine who goes to Gitmo and who doesn't. Still another reason that the Iraqi people should hate the insurgency.

Again, I say that what goes on at Gitmo is nothing more than what Air Force personnel who have only had about six weeks of military training go through during SERE training in terms of torture, and, while it is unpleasant, it hardly marks a human rights violation. This is war: **** happens; if this were peacetime and the US was abducting civilians and holding them without question, then I would be infuriated. It's happened frequently during wars; the Filipinos went through it, as did the Japanese, and even this is on a much smaller scale than those incidents.
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Offline vyper

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Offline Shade

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You seem to be missing something. Iraq and Gitmo are entirely unrelated. The people captured in Iraq are held mostly at Abu Ghraib, though I'm pretty sure they would trade that for Gitmo any day considering what has gone on there...

Many Guantanamo detainees were part of a real war. Against a clearly defined enemy - the Taleban, specifically. And don't make the mistake of equating Taleban with Al Qaeda, because they are not the same. Many more detainees there were simply civlilians (cab drivers, etc.) picked up off the street due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time or some US allied warlord holding a grudge against them.

And finally, there's a world of difference between going through a 6 week course you know will end and where you know you're not going to be harmed, and being held indefinitely, for no reason you know of, with no apparent chance of ever being let loose, not knowing whether you will actually live to see another day. It is a massive human rights violation, and a disgrace for the US to even be remotely associated with that sort of practise.
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Offline Mefustae

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It's still not the same. The insurgents fighting this war are essentially making Guantanamo what it is; refusing to abide by any international law in terms of treatment of POWs is leading civilians and guilty insurgents alike being thrown into Gitmo. If there were a clearly defined enemy in Iraq, it would certainly be easier to determine who goes to Gitmo and who doesn't. Still another reason that the Iraqi people should hate the insurgency.
So it's entirely on the hands of the insurgents that the US are holding potentially innocent civilians and subjecting them to torture?

Oh, it's because they're not a 'clearly defined enemy', well, that makes sense. Wait, no it doesn't, as it's not being 'clearly defined' that's kept the insurgent forces from being destroyed. Being underfined and fighting a guerella war is how you fight the US, they did it to great effect in Vietnam, and they're doing it to respectable effect here. It is not the fault of the insurgency that the US is picking up random POWs and ignoring their rights under Geneva, and to do so would be like saying the US shouldn't have bombed the s*** out of Bagdad before they went in because it wasn't 'sporting'.

Anyway, you're missing the point, while innocent civilians being sent to Gitmo is a problem, it's what goes on there that is the issue here, and I don't see how the fighting methods of a group of individuals half a world away have any impact on what goes on within those walls on the Isle of Cuba.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 06:41:03 pm by Mefustae »

 

Offline Bobboau

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You have to stick by your own standards even if that makes winning harder. Suck it up or **** off.

ok, we are sticking by OUR standards, few Americans consiter what happens in gitmo to be torture, when it is described to them.

and can you posably try to make a point without resorting to cliced nazi references, I beleive there is a rule of some sort stateing that the first person to bring up Nazis forfits the argument, I won't hold you to it of course. I don't think I've used any, but I think I've seen it come up a few times, I want you out of 'regergitate retoric' mode for a moment please.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together