[Fury]

Yet another reason reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.

[Kazan]

sounds like your problems are hardware oriented - not OSS

Edit: Business critical servers always run either Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) or Windows Server. RHEL is backed by Red Hat as a company, Red Hat supports their product.

O'RLY?

tell that to our server admins who have a $50K server cluster all running FC4


it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.

[Kazan]

Yet another reason reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.

bull**** - you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.

i don't know what you have been smoking and how you could possibly ignore pretty much the entire history of patent trolling, but you've done that pretty well.

software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art.  The failings of the US patent office are well documented.

[aldo_14]

AFAIK Cisco tend to use Solaris/Linux for the internal file servers.

[Kazan]

Fury and M$ sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. Okay that was very childish but what else do you expect from me. To be perfectly honest Microsoft do have the right to prevent unauthorised use of their software. Also what they are planning does not prevent you using an out of the box copy of Windows and running it. So really I fail to see what all the fuss is about. You want to make use of their free update service, you pay for their operating system. I'd say that's more than fair.

here's the problems

1) when they bought the product (windows) it didn't phone home
2) microsoft is saying "if you don't update your product we're going to render it useless" - that basically comes out to this - user bought product A, companyi s forcing them to exchange it for product B or they will destroy product A (render it useless) - that's destruction of property (and no the EULA cannot allow them to do that - EULAs are of dubious enforcability)
3) False-positives - rendering useless valid copies of windows (destruction of property)
4) privacy concerns

[Fury]

Kazan, you could have used a single post for all these posts.

tell that to our server admins who have a $50K server cluster all running FC4

I have mostly seen FC being used in virtual servers while the superserver itself is RHEL.

it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.

All this time I have been talking about business use, not home use. Its not like anyone cares what OS I use at home.

software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art.  The failings of the US patent office are well documented.

I agree, but its not like software patents are going to disappear.

you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.

That's true, but what happens when a patent owner pulls carpet from under an open-source software? It falls hard unless it can remove the infringing code and replace it with something else. Should that happen to an important software used in business critical environment, the company is in trouble and cannot afford that possibility. A software firm can just pay and everyone are happy.


But this is again one of these non-ending topics which cannot be won by either side, so I rest my case.

[Kazan]

it's laughable that you call "oss unreliable" and yet use windows.

All this time I have been talking about business use, not home use. Its not like anyone cares what OS I use at home.

so. am. I.

software patents are not only bad, they almost all are invalid due to prior art.  The failings of the US patent office are well documented.

I agree, but its not like software patents are going to disappear.

they can be ruled invalid

you encounter this with proprietary software more often than you encounter it with OSS software - because proprietary software can pay-up to patent trolls.

That's true, but what happens when a patent owner pulls carpet from under an open-source software? It falls hard unless it can remove the infringing code and replace it with something else. Should that happen to an important software used in business critical environment, the company is in trouble and cannot afford that possibility. A software firm can just pay and everyone are happy.


But this is again one of these non-ending topics which cannot be won by either side, so I rest my case.

if a software patent does get judged against an OSS application (extremely unlikely) - they simply recode - it's not that difficult.   Same thing that happens with proprietary code.  Except in the case of the OSS software the patent holder doesn't get awarded any money because people weren't making money off the idea.

Plus - firms are offering insurance against any such situation

there is a very good reason why no OSS software has been killed off by patent trolls to date

[Kazan]

[11:45] 104706158: who's this?
[11:45] Kazan: kazan
[11:45] Kazan: this fury?
[11:46] 104706158: yes, you need something?
[11:46] *** "Keeper" signed on at Fri Jun 30 11:46:18 2006.
[11:46] Kazan: yeah
[11:46] Kazan: to smack you upside the head
[11:46] Kazan: and ask you to cut the crap
[11:47] Kazan: you don't have to use OSS, but making up dishonest and disingenious claims abotu them before you're employed by a firm that fellates microsoft is simply reprehensible
[11:48] Fury: If you are referring to the open-source topic, I have no intention to continue discussing as it will lead to nowhere. I have posted my final message about that to the forums and I will leave it at that.
[11:48] Kazan: how unsuprising
[11:48] Kazan: cannot defend your FUD so you run
[11:48] Kazan: how much did you sell your honor out for?
[11:49] Fury: Ah, and now you're trying to provoke me to continue pointless flaming.
[11:50] Kazan: now i'm trying to provoke you to be honest
[11:51] Fury: So you are saying that your view on the matter is the only true one and all other points of views are wrong, is that right?
[11:51] Fury: I wish it would be so black and white for a chance
[11:53] Kazan: no
[11:53] Kazan: i'm saying that you're being disingenious
[11:53] Kazan: your posts show a lack of understanding of OSS and the legal liabilties of it
[11:54] Kazan: the strengths of the model, the actual realities of it
[11:54] Kazan: and many of your criticisms of OSS are criticisms of software in generally irreguardless of development model
[11:54] Kazan: and you completely ignore the fact that it bites both ways - at oss and at css
[11:55] Kazan: proprietary software is the real target of patent trolls
[11:55] Kazan: due to the fact they can often extort money out of a firm instead of that firm taking the time to stand up to the patent troll in cuort and get their patent (rightly) ruled invalid
[11:58] Fury: You're missing the point I was making the whole time. The point was that businesses/companies/corporations have not adopted open-source operating systems or software in their desktop and workstation environments. In these environments both Windows and even Macs with OS X are used, including proprietary software such as AutoCAD.
[12:01] Kazan: and about that you are flat out wrong
[12:02] Kazan: more than 50% of your desktops here are linux machines
[12:02] Kazan: 100% of our servers are linux machines
[12:02] Kazan: if yuo pay attention to the news you see other companies have gone 100% linux
[12:02] Kazan: including very large ones
[12:02] Kazan: and GOVERNMENTS (especially german) are moving to linux
[12:04] Fury: I believe it when I see it with my own eyes, so far I have not seen a single desktop or workstation running any linux and that has been used for business software and not for personal stuff. And I have seen many. News can say whatever they want, some of these news are to scare big bad MS anyway and some of these moves happen "in the near future".
[12:05] Kazan: well you're obviously walking around with blinders on
[12:06] Kazan: http://www.aaxnet.com/design/linux2.html'
[12:06] Fury: But if the desktop is running generic software such as word or excel and hardly nothing more than that, you could run whatever os on desktops like that.
[12:06] Kazan: oh.. btw
[12:06] Kazan: you're forgetting about google
[12:06] Kazan: and dreamworks
[12:06] Kazan: and ilm
[12:06] Kazan: and burlington coat factor
[12:06] Kazan: ha
[12:06] Kazan: gotta list for you
[12:10] Kazan: At the same time, industry leaders IBM (nyse: IBM - news  - people ), Oracle (nasdaq: ORCL - news  - people ), Intel (nasdaq: INTC - news  - people ) and others have committed resources--in IBM's case billions of dollars--to Linux marketing, support and development. Roughly 10% of Dell Computer's (nasdaq: DELL - news  - people ) servers are sold with Linux pre-installed, according to the company.
[12:11] Fury: I don't know what google and whatever use and I don't really care either way, I care about firms I have worked or work for indirectly or directly, and they do not use linux anywhere else except servers, where linux are far superior to windows anyway.
[12:12] Kazan: so basically what you're saying is: you're going to ignore fact as long as you don't have to see it with your own eyes
[12:12] Kazan: how enlightening
[12:13] Fury: Could very well be so, I vote with my feet or however the saying goes.
[12:13] Kazan: well denying the truth simply because you haven't worked with one of the big companies that is using it is simply dishonest
[12:13] Kazan: and worse - making up claims and acting like certain things only affect OSS when it affects are software are downright dishonest
[12:14] Kazan: oh btw
[12:14] Kazan: SCO just got OWNED today
[12:14] Kazan: http://www.forbes.com/home/technology/2006/06/29/ibm-sco-linux_cz_dl_0629ibm.html
[12:15] Fury: Ugh, SCO is still going on it? What a bunch of ****tards.
[12:16] Kazan: nice tidbit here
[12:16] Kazan: undreds of companies using Linux as an embedded operating system in hardware devices also would be hurt, as well as thousands of companies around the world that use Linux servers to power Web sites and handle other tasks. These include top Wall Street firms and companies such as Google  (nasdaq: GOOG -  news  -  people ), which operates hundreds of thousands of Linux-based servers.
[12:18] Fury: I guess the comparison between open-source and proprietary came off looking wrong. What I mean that most open-source softwares do not have a solid backing up in which businesses could trust. I think that's what worries most businesses and which is why of all linux distros RHEL is the most common in businesses. FC and others may be used in less critical environments such as virtual servers.
[12:19] Kazan: our servers are not virtual servers
[12:19] Kazan: our servers are enterprise class production environment hosting revenue generating web applications for eGovernment servicing
[12:19] Kazan: (to use marketing-speak)
[12:19] Fury: And you're using FC? Ugh... seriously...
[12:19] Kazan: yes seriously
[12:19] Kazan: with 100% uptime
[12:19] Kazan: zero security metrics warnings
[12:20] Kazan: zero successful penetrations of our applications
[12:20] Kazan: if a server does get penetrated we just reboot it - they're running off liveCDs
[12:20] Kazan: we need to add more hardware to the cluster for extremely high load?
[12:21] Kazan: hook a new box into the cluster's network - insert the appropriate liveCD for the job we want to box to do, boot up
[12:21] Kazan: 30 seconds after booting up it will be automatically actively participating in load balancing
[12:22] Fury: I have to say that is quite a feat considering that FC is in the end a testbed for RHEL
[12:22] Kazan: as for the fact that many corporate ccustomers flock to RHEL - we don't mind
[12:22] Kazan: despite being "test bed" FC is extremely stable
[12:23] Kazan: all our developers run linux - all but one of them use fedora core
[12:23] Kazan: on our desktop machines
[12:23] Kazan: i run linux at home on a multimedia computer
[12:28] Kazan: the only barriers that really remain to linux adoptions are: inertia, FUD, anticompetative practices

[pecenipicek]

Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.


if you like your linux, thats good. but keep it to yourself. do not arse people to go over to linux or waste time arguing why it might be better or worse than any software that people or companies actually pay for.

[Kazan]

Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.

Apparently you do need my help since you cannot be bothered to ask someone who may know what they're doing.

It's not OSS'es fault that you're inept and stubborn about it!

Fedora doesn't come with the mp3 decoding plugin for XMMS because frauenhofner's BS wanting $0.25 per.  So just go to fedorafaq.org and follow their instructions!

http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3

if you like your linux, thats good. but keep it to yourself. do not arse people to go over to linux or waste time arguing why it might be better or worse than any software that people or companies actually pay for.

I'll argue with whomever I choose - especially when their argument against linux is misinformed, dishonest or merely their own incompetance and inability to RTFM

[Kosh]

Yet another reason reason why free open-source is avoided by businesses. This is not something you would be bound to encounter if you use proprietary software with paid licenses. Well, ok, anything can happen but at least large software firms have the $$ to pay and it won't affect the customers at all.

Software patents is a poor reason for avoiding it, since they aren't even legal.

[pecenipicek]

Kazan, you're really an idiot sometimes... i cant get linux to do half the things i need, for ****s sake, i cant get bloody mp3 players on linux work for me properly. and, no i dont need your help about it.

Apparently you do need my help since you cannot be bothered to ask someone who may know what they're doing.

It's not OSS'es fault that you're inept and stubborn about it!

Fedora doesn't come with the mp3 decoding plugin for XMMS because frauenhofner's BS wanting $0.25 per.  So just go to fedorafaq.org and follow their instructions!

http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3

weeell, guess what. i'm not using fedora. its not the problem with playback, its the fact that everytime i try to import more than one file, XMMS crashes horridly. also, who the **** put you in charge of the world? linux is a thing good for poking around with when you've got nothing better to do, but if you need something done, use windows. or at least thats my case. if you can use it for something serious, my hat is off to you, but i cannot be bothered to switch over to gimp and blender just cause linux is whatnot. i've got my stuff on windows, and thats all i need.

and lets face it, people are reluctant to try linux cause its a "bit" intimidating for the begginer. its easier to go on to any windows based software and windows themselves, cause people are familliar with it.

[aldo_14]

Well, this seems to be warming up nicely now......

[Kazan]

weeell, guess what. i'm not using fedora. its not the problem with playback, its the fact that everytime i try to import more than one file, XMMS crashes horridly.

interesting, file a bug report

linux is a thing good for poking around with when you've got nothing better to do, but if you need something done, use windows. or at least thats my case.

a case that you cannot defend reasonably - i get much more done when working with a linux machine that I ever get done in one session at a windows machine.  Linux machine stability > *, linux machine virus vulernatbility: next to none existance (and not just becuase they don't write virii for linux).

I don't care what you use for personal use - but i'm not going to stand by and let you defame a superior product based upon your own inability to manage it.  Your XMMS problem was almost certainly already fixed, you just needed to run your update program.

if you can use it for something serious, my hat is off to you, but i cannot be bothered to switch over to gimp and blender just cause linux is whatnot. i've got my stuff on windows, and thats all i need.

Maya is native to linux

Photoshop CS (CS1 aka 8.0) runs in wine under several distros - here is the AppDB entry http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=1815


GIMP is actually more powerful than Photoshop from what i'm told - just has a steeper learning curve

and lets face it, people are reluctant to try linux cause its a "bit" intimidating for the begginer. its easier to go on to any windows based software and windows themselves, cause people are familliar with it.

actually a properly configured linux system that's already setup (like most windows PCs come to home users) are perfectly easy to use.  I've plopped my grandma down in front of a FC4 laptop and she had no problem getting around

my fiancee ran nothing but linux for 9 months and FC1 (went back to windows to play EQ - technically i could move her back to linux if i wanted)

KDE is perfectly easy to navigate around for the software challenged.

[Kamikaze]

Businesses don't use open-source, open-source is not trusted and is unreliable. And unreliability comes from the fact that the software is free, it does not bring food to the table and the programmer is free to quit programming it anytime. There is no true guarantee of technical support.

First of all, you're flat out wrong for generalizing. There is plenty of open source software that is supported and funded by businesses. Just yesterday I found some open source accounting software (called Quasar) that is commercially supported. You're bull****ting out of your ass.

I don't know if there is any comparable open-source software to AutoCAD for example. But guess twice if businesses will buy AutoCAD or download open-source alternative. They will go with AutoCAD.

Not sure if there are any fully-featured competitors, but there are competitors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_computer-aided_design_software

However, you just picked one of the hardest markets for OSS to penetrate. Autodesk has a firm monopolistic grip, especially on CAD file formats. The Open Design Alliance is trying to do something about that.

"Maybe it works, maybe not" is not what businesses want to hear. Any emulator is unreliable.

Firstly, it isn't an emulator. Secondly, games have nothing to do with businesses so you're not even addressing what Kazan was arguing about. And third, if businesses want support for wine they can go buy Crossover Office. Crossover is a commercially supported wine variant for use with office apps.

PS: making your ATI card work on linux is laughably trivial.  I have less problems getting my card working on Fedora Core 5 than I do on windows

To add to what Kazan said, it's worth mentioning that the OSS drivers for Nvidia and ATI do support direct rendering (AKA hardware acceleration).

GIMP is actually more powerful than Photoshop from what i'm told - just has a steeper learning curve

That's not quite true yet. GIMP is still missing a lot of features professionals need from a graphics program (e.g. proper color management). It's still pretty useful for casual users though.

KDE is perfectly easy to navigate around for the software challenged.

Eww KDE. </flamewar>

[Kazan]

Eww KDE. </flamewar>

yeah, but i have Linus on my side

pwnd

[vyper]

Guys, get a god damned grip. I see fanbois on both sides in here. The way I see it:

Both Linux and Windows are acceptable desktop OS for general office use.

For web design, again both are acceptable.

For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.

For bespoke solutions, it matters not. Either will do.

For many heavy duty graphics apps, as has been pointed out, Linux lacks a lot of driver support and therefore limits performance. Windows wins.

For embedded or "thin" clients, Linux is a favorable option depending on (again) whether the solution being developed is bespoke or COST.

Now hug and make up. All of you. And no tongues.

[Kazan]

Guys, get a god damned grip. I see fanbois on both sides in here. The way I see it:

the linux side of the argument doesn't have to make things up to support their side of the argument

Both Linux and Windows are acceptable desktop OS for general office use.

yup

For web design, again both are acceptable.

yup

For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.

 
nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time

For many heavy duty graphics apps, as has been pointed out, Linux lacks a lot of driver support and therefore limits performance. Windows wins.

false - nvidia and ATI drivers run just fine under linux and several windows native games perform better under linux w/ wine than they do under native windows w/ directx9 (some vice versa as well)

openGL performance ( a true comparision) on both platforms tends to favor the properly tuned linux machine

For embedded or "thin" clients, Linux is a favorable option depending on (again) whether the solution being developed is bespoke or COST.

linux are vastly superior for thin clients - KDE's built in browser is Acid2 (Mac OS/X native web client uses the same code from KDE), Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?

Also linux is superior for security - especially on this

Now hug and make up. All of you. And no tongues.

lol

[Kamikaze]

For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.

nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time

Or better - Qt. Cross-platform OSS library with commercial support that's used to build Opera and KDE. It is, in my opinion, the best documented and useable graphics toolkit in existence. Has a nifty GUI designer for RAD too, demo video here.

Had to put that plug in 'cause Qt is just so awesome.

Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?

There used to be an ad-supported version and a no-ads version that cost money (around $30 I think). Nowadays it's free and ad-less for all because Opera gets enough profit from Google.

[Kazan]

For application development where public use is an issue (where code is compiled and executed - e.g. a C++ .exe) then Windows has the advantage because it is the dominant desktop OS.

nope - http://www.wxwidgets.org - develop for both platforms at the same time

Or better - Qt. Cross-platform OSS library with commercial support that's used to build Opera and KDE. It is, in my opinion, the best documented and useable graphics toolkit in existence. Has a nifty GUI designer for RAD too, demo video here.

Had to put that plug in 'cause Qt is just so awesome.

Opera is now Acid2 compliant I believe and runs on all three - but doesn't it cost money?

There used to be an ad-supported version and a no-ads version that cost money (around $30 I think). Nowadays it's free and ad-less for all because Opera gets enough profit from Google.

QT is also comercially encumbered and requires additional installation packages on windows.  wxWidgets's implementation on windows and MacOS uses the native underlying system calls and for unixlike systems there is wxGTK and wxUniversal