[Kazan]

(talking to bob)

I was merely quoting myself - took some simply copy+pasting, aldo brought up something from a medical journal, and I dismissed it and gave reasons why it was flawed, then brought out the citations to the medical journals.

Aldo was actually attempting to play devils-advocate so I just saved myself the time and just went straight to source citations


maybe you should care!

I can't be arsed going round looking for the counter arguements right now (or later), and I don't care / can't be arsed about arguing over it because of the issue of informed consent IMO overweighing the medical arguements in any case.

CONSENT?! CONSENT!?

you DARE say there is CONSENT?!

an infant cannot consent!

What would you say to someone who said the female genital mutilation was a situation of "informed consent"! they're the same ****ing proceedure*!

I cannot BELIEVE the ****ing double standard that people allow rage on and then INSULT people who point it out.


* in the least severe form of FGM - more severe forms exist - all of them are banned

[aldo_14]

(talking to bob)

I was merely quoting myself - took some simply copy+pasting, aldo brought up something from a medical journal, and I dismissed it and gave reasons why it was flawed, then brought out the citations to the medical journals.

Aldo was actually attempting to play devils-advocate so I just saved myself the time and just went straight to source citations


maybe you should care!

I can't be arsed going round looking for the counter arguements right now (or later), and I don't care / can't be arsed about arguing over it because of the issue of informed consent IMO overweighing the medical arguements in any case.

CONSENT?! CONSENT!?

you DARE say there is CONSENT?!

an infant cannot consent!

What would you say to someone who said the female genital mutilation was a situation of "informed consent"! they're the same ****ing proceedure*!

I cannot BELIEVE the ****ing double standard that people allow rage on and then INSULT people who point it out.


* in the least severe form of FGM - more severe forms exist - all of them are banned

Kazan, Kazan.....

Please read it again, because you've read the opposite of my meaning.   And used big caps, which is really rather annoying on the eye at 23:40.

 My point was that the medical pro-con arguement is IMO irrelevant because of the overriding (non)arguement of consent.  "Informed" would be that that consent, from an adult, would not be based on purely cultural pressures.

[Bobboau]

kaz do you supose that maybe he was saying the whole line of argument was irrelivent because the whole thing falls apart due to that, ie you should be able win without needing to go were you had gone.

[WMCoolmon]

At this point, no one is really responding to the argument(s) as much as they are responding to the presentation of that/those argument(s)

[Kazan]

Kazan, Kazan.....

Please read it again, because you've read the opposite of my meaning.   And used big caps, which is really rather annoying on the eye at 23:40.

 My point was that the medical pro-con arguement is IMO irrelevant because of the overriding (non)arguement of consent.  "Informed" would be that that consent, from an adult, would not be based on purely cultural pressures.

my apologies for misunderstanding you

[Ulala]

CONSENT?! CONSENT!?

you DARE say there is CONSENT?!

an infant cannot consent!

*shrugs* Until I was 18, my parents made certain decisions for me, including my own circumcision. Now, I happen to like my parents most of the time, and I trusted them to make those decisions. I have yet to regret doing so.

Oh, and posting on HLP does seem meaningless, I'll give 'em that, but for you to work to get legislation passed actually kinda impresses me. I wish you luck! 

[Kazan]

circumcision is the ONLY situation in which it's legal for parents to have healthy tissue amputated from their child's body.

a child (once it's a child - ie it's born, it's an individual) has rights that even their parents cannot violate

oh this came over the mailing list this morning

List,

Does anyone have access to the full JAMA review of A Surgical Temptation?:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/294/21/2771

I signed up for free access, but for some reason (insert conspiracy theory) it does not include
the full text of this review. I'd like to have it for future reference when people are
dismissive of sources.

On the author's website, he quotes the portion of the review that says "... this book should be
required reading for American physicians in particular, especially those who continue to perform
an operation seldom practiced in the rest of the world and who might not know why it was
originally begun."

-- Journal of the American Medical Association,  7 December 2005

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=56

(Toward the bottom.)

The homepage has the author's email, so I will ask him for the full review too and post it
unless a list member can access it on JAMA.

It doesn't get much better than the Journal of the American Medical Association saying that a
book called A Surgical Temptation: The Demonization of the Foreskin and the Rise of Circumcision
in Britain is required reading for U.S. physicians. But we'll have to tell them one by one
because they don't have time to read the journal of their own professional organization or any
books on circumcision for that matter. Those who are performing circumcisions are too busy to
develop an opinion about whether it is moral or not.

Thanks,
Jerry

[Ulala]

I didn't say I'm not an individual without rights. I think it's just that we used to live in a time where we could trust our parents to make decisions for us when we couldn't. But I guess that time is long gone now. 

[Kazan]

no - we live in a time in which we realize there is some decisions they can make, and some that it is not their right to make

this is one of the latter.

[Edward Bradshaw]

it's not a medically warranted proceedure in the general case by any meaning of the term.  it is the removal of healthy tissue that cannot be replaced that contains 66% of the nerve tissue in the penis, 100% of the special immune system structures, 50% of the mobile skin (on the average adult male it's enough skin to place 15 quarters on http://www.noharmm.org/snip.htm ) and various other things.

Im one of the rare cases that had it done for medical reasons rather than relgious ones, but Im so glad I dont have one. Just seems dirty to me. And what happens if it "snaps"? I hear thats very painfull, scary and bloody. Glad I never have to worry about any of that! And I can feel with it just fine thank you!

[Ace]

"Snaps?" I don't know what the hell you did with your foreskin, but it sure as hell shouldn't be doing that

[Edward Bradshaw]

"Snaps?" I don't know what the hell you did with your foreskin, but it sure as hell shouldn't be doing that

Hasnt happened to me, but other men seem to know what Im talking about and a friend of mine told me it happened to him recently.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=foreskin+snap+your+Frenulum+blood+everywhere&meta=

So if you have a foreskin, this could happen to you. Smega is also sounds gross, glad I never have to worry about that either.

[brozozo]

Oh, God. I'm not going to click on that link.

[WeatherOp]

Wow, I love Kazan, nothing can brighten up a long day of work like hearing him speak his mind. Go Kazan, go.

[Grug]

Interesting quote I dug up:

"If Tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

—James Madison, while a United States
Congressman

Someone was clever.

Oh and:

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

—Hermann Goering. Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII.

[IPAndrews]

So how's the war against religion going Kaz? I can't be bothered to read nearly a hundred posts so just give me a one line summary.

[aldo_14]

Interesting quote I dug up:

"If Tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

—James Madison, while a United States
Congressman

Someone was clever.

Oh and:

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

—Hermann Goering. Hitler's Reich-Marshall at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII.

Hmm.... that sounds familiar

[Grug]

LoL, you been reading @ http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/secret_societies.htm too?

[aldo_14]

Hey, my uncles' a Mason........

[Grug]

LoLs.

According to these irrefutable sources, he must be the pawn of some international plot to bring about the New World Order (TM).
Is he a shady character I wonder?

...

To explain on my behalf, I find reading about history and present day events in accordance to different spins and views interesting. Some of its a good read. Some of the stuff based on widely known facts does perk my eyebrow as to the real reason behind some things too. All good fun reading though.