[Mars]

Uh... just a small request: if people could try to use proper grammer when posting on the wiki, that would make life much easier. It doesn't need to be absolutely perfect, but I've noticed several recent posts that are pretty hard to understand due to grammatical errors.

[Dark Hunter]

I'll remind you that some people on this site didn't learn english as a first language (*cough* Mehrpack *cough*). In that case though, have someone proofread it before posting, I say.

[Mars]

I know... sorry if I came out sounding arrogent or stupid 

Just... a gentle reminder

[NGTM-1R]

Horrible irony attendant to this thread.

The word is "grammar".

[Mars]

I actually noticed that moments after posting, but decided to keep it, for the irony

Doesn't compete with my "Demos Cannon" thread

[aldo_14]

I'll remind you that some people on this site didn't learn english as a first language (*cough* Mehrpack *cough*). In that case though, have someone proofread it before posting, I say.

Uh-huh, but it doesn't mean the wiki shouldn't be propah engleesh, like.



Um, we have an edit button, though, so if you see a glaring grammatical error.....fix it

[TopAce]

I once made a template that puts on a tag on an article that says something like "This article needs a thorough check for grammatical correction by native speakers of English." I think it also puts articles into a separate category, making them easier to spot.

[aldo_14]

I once made a template that puts on a tag on an article that says something like "This article needs a thorough check for grammatical correction by native speakers of English." I think it also puts articles into a separate category, making them easier to spot.

I'm not sure that tag is actually proper grammar, though........ (sorry, couldn't resist)

[TopAce]

Change it, then.

See? Irony. Second time in this thread.

[DaBrain]

Me's grammar's Fine does, be!

Isn't this what the Wiki is about? People post stuff as good as they can, and other people correct it.

You *should* check what you've written though.

[Shade]

"This article needs a thorough check for grammatical correction by native speakers of English."

I'd lean more towards "by someone who has learned English in a school and not from internet message boards, World of Warcraft or any combination thereof", than just native speakers

Many native speakers of it are utterly horrible at writing correct English, while many europeans with a higher education will be able to pass for a native speaker in writing. For the simple reason that proficiency at written English is highly emphasized in most european countries.

[Goober5000]

"by someone who has learned English in a school studied English ..."

Fixed that for you.

Nowadays many schools refuse to mark students down for bad spelling or grammar on the grounds it'll hurt their self-esteem.

[Flipside]

I thought that was what the entire education establishment was designed to do?

[Goober5000]

No, it's designed to perform a lobotomy.  Keeping your self-esteem high is anesthesia.

[TopAce]

Let's make a distinction between grammar, spelling, and puncuation. A native speaker understands that some syntatical structures sound wrong and is able to correct them to sound naturally. Most English as a second language students understand grammatical rules but they often make awkward sentences that just sound weird to native speakers. I heavily belong to this group like many ESL learners - and even their teachers.

Spelling and punctuation are different from this. You just have to take a book and start looking things up about punctuation: you look up however and you can figure out of the sentences which usages need or doesn't need a comma. You go to the appendices and learn the usage of commas, periods, semicolons, and hypens without being able to form a correct sentence in the Present Continuous (I going to school every day, however, I don't like doing it). I'm using this example because I know that many don't use commas in this sense of however. My point is that you may not know how a correct English sentence looks like, but you may know where to put commas. This is true vice versa. You may write the same sentence correctly without using commas before and after however, which is incorrect punctuation, but the sentence suddenly sounds right.

Nowadays many schools refuse to mark students down for bad spelling or grammar on the grounds it'll hurt their self-esteem.

That's a mistake because English spelling and pronunciation differ very much.

[Freespace Freak]

That's a mistake because English spelling and pronunciation differ very much.

Especially "English" English.  Some Americans tried to rewrite English words to make them more phonetic, like color verses colour (no one says 'cah-leur' anymore), programme verses program, and so forth, but they didn't change American English completely to conform to their rules.  That's why you see multiple spellings, such as nite and night.  Night's considered more correct, but nite is considered correct in some circles, and is the spelling they intended to change it to.  Unfortunately, this phonetic spelling revolution never caught on in other countries.  Hmmm, Commonwealth and other countries use metric, which is easier, but Americans still use the obsolete and difficult English system, and American use the standard American English, which is easier to use, but the commonwealth countries and such still use the old English standard, which is obsolete and more difficult to use.  There's irony there.

[Mefustae]

No, the Commonwealth uses proper English because we have enough respect not to bastardise the language of our forebears, there's nothing 'obsolete' or 'difficult to use' about it. You want to use that distorted language known as 'American' English, go right ahead, but don't assume Traditional English is as stupid as the Imperial System just because it has a few silent letters here and there.

Edit: Wait a minute, why the hell'd you bump a nearly two-week-old thread?

[TopAce]

That's a mistake because English spelling and pronunciation differ very much.

Especially "English" English.  Some Americans tried to rewrite English words to make them more phonetic, like color verses colour (no one says 'cah-leur' anymore), programme verses program, and so forth, but they didn't change American English completely to conform to their rules.  That's why you see multiple spellings, such as nite and night.  Night's considered more correct, but nite is considered correct in some circles, and is the spelling they intended to change it to.  Unfortunately, this phonetic spelling revolution never caught on in other countries.  Hmmm, Commonwealth and other countries use metric, which is easier, but Americans still use the obsolete and difficult English system, and American use the standard American English, which is easier to use, but the commonwealth countries and such still use the old English standard, which is obsolete and more difficult to use.  There's irony there.

I always thought nite was only used in informal letters. As for colour - color and programme and [/i]program[/i]: don't forget that there were a LOT of spelling suggestions from Webster's part that were turned down. The reason why these changes were accepted was because they dropped the Frenchish -our and the Greek -me endings. While there is no reason why night, light, or might should be changed to nite, lite, and mite respectively. That's why these forms (except for mite, maybe) are non-standard.

Mefustae: I think you are overly critical of American English. I know that many (especially the British) dislike the way Americans use English, but please consider that there are a lot of features in American English that actually derive from the English used around the 1500s. Guess was used as a verb for example. Today, it's usually misattributed to be a purely American invention.

[karajorma]

Hmmm, Commonwealth and other countries use metric, which is easier, but Americans still use the obsolete and difficult English system

So in other words when the Americans decided to do everything differently from the English after the revolution just because they could they decide to drive on the wrong side of the road, run their horse races the wrong way round the track, mispell words and basically change everything except the one thing that would actually have been a good idea?

Yep. Sounds about right

[Turey]

So in other words when the Americans decided to do everything differently from the English after the revolution just because they could they decide to drive on the wrong side of the road, run their horse races the wrong way round the track, mispell words and basically change everything except the one thing that would actually have been a good idea?

Yep. Sounds about right

Well of course.

if (EnglandDoesEverythingRight == true && AmericaWantsToBeCompletelyUnlikeEngland == true) {
   AmericaDoesEverythingWrong = true;
}