[]C[rusader]

@taylor:
"I didn't test Hornets at all while I was..."

Ah.  Seems i was forming quite the wrong impression about the code.  Thanks much for clarifying. 


"... Just did a quick test though..."

Mm, very amusing on the 'uselessness'.  i do agree, Hornets seem rather ineffective, specifically against fighters and light bombers, in both FS and FS2. 

However, the trait didn't strike me as being a problem of accuracy or tracking delay.  i perceived the issue to hinge on the acceleration of the individual warheads.  Most of the time, a salvo of Hornets simply fails to even catch up to an enemy fighter / light bomber.  As others have pointed out, large, slow targets obviously are easier to hit, either by locking-on or by just dumbfiring. 

So, from that discouraging factor (plus another--the Hornet lock-on time feels like an eternity compared to most other ship-to-ship missiles) i stopped using Hornets a long time ago.  Now that i've read this thread, my impression is that they are basically a "shotgun" version of the Fury / Tempest dumbfires.  The Hornet has a slower acceleration / slower rate of fire, but fires a spread with a higher chance to hit; the Fury / Tempest has a higher acceleration / higher rate of fire, but doesn't shoot a spread and has a lower chance to hit. 

Usefulness may therefore boil down to a question of playing style; either pelt a big slow target with a rifle, or else wallop it with a sawed-off.  And, this may have some relevance to why Tornado missiles fail to operate properly without a lock.  Perhaps Volition intended categories of 'weapon style', like this:

           Vs. fast, small ships     Vs. slow, large ships
                       |                           | 
Rifle ------  Harpoon     ----     Tempest

Shotgun --  Tornado     ----     Hornet

At any rate, thanks for taking a moment to test and report the facts.  i do hope it helps to settle the issue.

[karajorma]

...  Just did a quick test though, and Hornets appear to work the same in retail and FS2_Open with my standard AI fire test mission.  And by the same, I mean equally useless.

Maybe you should just post that mission and let people prove it to themselves. I suspect ]C[rusader may have hit on the actual problem. People could just be remembering the hornet from FS1 or the Tornado.

[D_arkman]

I only moved to SCP two months ago, playing retail for several years before.

In general, I don't see there any change in missile behaviour. Hornets sux equaly hard in SCP and Retail againts fighters.  But Harpoons and Tornados are 90% hit proved.
Hell, you can shot down a perseus flying right againts you, I don't know what better guidance you want  :

[taylor]

Maybe you should just post that mission and let people prove it to themselves.

Ok.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[]C[rusader]

@karajorma:
"I suspect ]C[rusader may have hit on the actual problem. People could just be remembering the hornet from FS1..."

Truth be told, i didn't suggest that.  Wanderer did.  To me, Hornets seem identically 'slow' in all versions--FS, FS2 retail, and FS2 SCP--so my opinion is therefore different than his suggestion.   

It does bring up an interesting question... if there IS a difference between FS Hornets vs. FS2 Hornets, then do the FSPort Hornets reflect that?  Suppose that FS Hornets -are- found to be faster in flight, faster to lock, more accurate, or somesuch; does that mean they should be likewise in the FSPort?

[karajorma]

As Taylor said there are definite code differences between the two. What that means for the tracking etc is something that could probably be tested by comparing FS1 against FS1Port.

[Kosh]

With soem of the later builds, i've noticed that all missiles I use simply don't track about 20% of the time. I have a good lock, nice range, and great target, and yet the missile will just go straight and ignore the target. Anyone else seen this, or am I going crazy?

I have exactly the same problem, maybe my build is too old.....

[Mobius]

However, showing us an AI test isn't enough.
The opinion about this problem changes from person to person,we someone says "short distance between you and the target" everyone thinks something different. For short distance,very short distance,I intend less than 130 meters....I have no choice but to do this.....
                                                     80's Screenshot 1                                 
                 
                                                 /                             \                   <---- HUD
                                                                             
                                                           XXX  <---- target,pointing left on this example, fast but still lockable with a meneuver.

                                                                Y <----- warhead

                                                 \                            /

                                                      80's screenshot 2

                                                 /                             \

                                                              XXX <-------- target locked,your meneuver puts him close to the center of the reticle.
                                         
                                                                      Y <----- warhead, once launched it takes a few before going after the target.
                                                 \                              /


                                                   80's screenshot 3

                                                 /                            \

                                                      XXXX <----- target, you think it's doomed and you slow down or try to engage another hostile.

                                                                      Y <----- warhead,it starts moving too late....
                                                 \                            /
                                               
The result is that,even without going at high speed, the target escapes because the warhead started moving after a century.
Please note that the time between screenshots 1 and 3 is very short:the lock triangle(I don't remember its name) was already on the way,all I need to do is to maintain the lock and fire.This is a tipical pursuit situation:you follow an enemy,then it moves left,right,up,down,you gain lock in the meantime and you try to shoot.
All the situations described by you were completely different,taylor was talking about a general AI problem...

Sorry if I can't explain it well,I'm not English....

[karajorma]

The important point however is whether or not this is any different from the way it was in retail.

[Mobius]

The important point however is whether or not this is any different from the way it was in retail.

Ehm,the difference is that in the retail missiles are more affidable...
With the SCP,warheads become active after an higher amount of time.
There's something strange with weapons,however.How could you explain the destrcution of the GTD Phoenicia?In the retail,it happens sometimes.With the SCP,she's always destroyed!

[Zacam]

Actually, I've had the GTD Phoenicia survive. Several times. However, if I ever have to quick start the mission (either quick start or return to briefing and relaunch) it is destroyed, always. I know this because "Bearbaiting" is one of the missions I use to test various things in. On a clean launch of the SCP and going straight in to the mission in the Tech Room, first run through will have the Phoenicia jumping out 70% of the time.

[]C[rusader]

User: "SCP Hornets don't chase soon enough. I want them to act like retail Hornets."

Coder: "We haven't seen any bugs in the SCP missile code, please provide evidence."

User: "Somebody mentioned 0.25 secs of inactivity, and that sounds bad.  Also, other people agree with me about the Hornets, so that's enough proof.  I want them to act like retail."

Coder: "0.25 seconds of inactivity is the default setting of Hornets in retail and in SCP.  And people agreeing with you isn't proof of anything.  Please provide evidence."

User: "The SCP Hornets need a change from 0.25 secs of inactivity, it's too long. I want them to act like retail."

Coder: "I said, 0.25 seconds of inactivity is the default.  It isn't broken.  Retail and SCP Hornets are the same."

User: "The SCP Hornets need a change to 0.25 secs of inactivity, it's just right. I want them to act like retail."

Coder: "You've contradicted yourself, but I'll humour you with a test, here--and guess what?  I've found no difference between Hornets in retail vs. in SCP."

User: "The SCP Hornets need a change from 0.25 secs of inactivity, it's too long.  I want them to act like retail."

Coder: "#$!@$!#!!11!"

[Nuke]

people just need to learn to use their guns

[CP5670]

Or the king of secondaries for SP missions, Tempests.

[Mars]

Or the king of secondaries for SP missions, Tempests.

Tempests rock! I always have a my smaller bank with Harpoons and the larger one with Tempests.

[Nuke]

the first time i played the game i think i used tempests pretty much half the game

[Mobius]

I love the Tempests too,and often use the harpoons.
Although I've been playing FS2 for just one year and 8 months,I'm a very experienced pilot(42000 kills do not come out from nothing! And remember that several games I played haven't a kill record database,so...).People who see me playing love my meneuvers and how I anticipate the enemies' actions. I don't know why in FS2 SCP warjeads are tricking.

If you all use mostly the Tempests and the Harpoons,however,you can get the problem.One goes straight,the other is launched without swarming....

Actually, I've had the GTD Phoenicia survive. Several times. However, if I ever have to quick start the mission (either quick start or return to briefing and relaunch) it is destroyed, always. I know this because "Bearbaiting" is one of the missions I use to test various things in. On a clean launch of the SCP and going straight in to the mission in the Tech Room, first run through will have the Phoenicia jumping out 70% of the time.

That's curious. With two campaigns is the making I play single missions i need to test and campaign missions I like.
I hope this is a coincidence,but if the behaviour of the Fate with the Phoenicia changes if you're playing Bearbaiting as a single ms or in the campaign,it's a point to our teory.
There's something that doesn't go as we expect...

[Bob-san]

I have noticed something quite interesting about some swarm missiles.

The AI has seemed to be written to make fighters try to get in the turning radius. In most cases that this happens, the swarm of 4 or 8 missiles follow the target. I had discovered that these most of the individual swarming missiles actually blow-up, causing a chain explosion of the other 3-to-7 missiles while they are out of range. I noticed this while attempting to use the Hornets against a Mara. The Mara turned sharp right, and the missiles followed. One missile of my 8-missile swarm had hit (I noticed because I was watching the target's shields), and then the other 7 exploded in a chain reaction, too far to cause damage, but close enough to the other missile to destroy the others.

[]C[rusader]

If memory serves...

Fratricide:
a.) Latin-based noun built of the terms fratri- (brother) and -cide (slaughter of), originally used to describe the killing of a brother, or brothers, by his / their own sibling(s)

b.) English noun used by military personnel to describe any case where a group of two or more explosive devices are prematurely detonated by the nearby explosion of another device in the group

@Bob-san:
It could very well be that the fratricidal behaviour you just described seeing, is perhaps an intentional part of FS2, so i'm not surprised to hear of it. 

What does puzzle me, is the notion that one Hornet out of a swarm could somehow outrun the others, so as to cause the fratricide in the first place.  Since i don't use Hornets or Tornadoes, i can't recall seeing that happen.

[Mobius]

Studying Latin at school wasn't enough?!?! Are you going to kill me?
LieutenantGeneralMobius mortuus est
LieutenantgeneralMobius è morto
LieutenantGeneralMobius is dead

That's not something new,this "fratricidio".This makes the Hornet almost useless against agile fighters.