Author Topic: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)  (Read 9388 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
Recruiting officers are having difficulty meeting quotas, so to compensate, they grab anyone they can. Most of them end up in the Infantry as well, because of the relative ease of that certain branch. It's true that the other branches are much, much harder and more extensive than the Army in performing background checks. But hey, when all you need a soldier for is firing a gun and killing people, who cares if he's a murderer in real life, huh? (That was sarcasm)

To quote a book I just read (Catch-22); "Oh well what the hell"

 

Offline Sphynx

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I don't have a lot of time to post my thoughts, so forgive me for this not being tottaly coherent.

There is a difference between normal human fight-or-flight response or the activation of the warrior within us (which we all have) and what we have going on with Pvt. Green.

First, let me state that I am speaking from a psychological point of view. That is what I do, that is what I know, so that is where I am coming from.

Now, I am not his therapist, but from what I have learned about him, what we are looking at here is pathological.

Most people go in to the armed forces and are trained to kill. They have to learn to do it. It does take mind games (depersonification or villification) in many instances to numb the cognitive and moral dissonance that people feel when causing the death of a human being. Some soldiers accept this passively, while others find that fighting for a cause, like defending freedom, promoting democracy, etc... is enough to help them come to peace with what they are doing, at least for the most part.

Then, there is a subset that goes into the army so they can find a legally sanctioned way to kill. (It's similiar to the phenomenon in which drinking does not really make people violent, but some people drink so they can be violent. No time to flesh that out right now, but let me just note the similarity.) This can be for various reasons, but it's pretty easy to build a profile of the family history of such a person. Throw in a non-responsive or absent father, perhaps some physical or sexual abuse, problems with education and maybe even a learning disability, toss in domestic violence in the family and drug use, etc...

Anyways, this is the kind that I worry about, because their actions are not tempered by moral ideas such as "just cause," nor are their minds really impressed by the concept of a "civilian."  

Now, the part that makes me fairly certain that this guy has some serious psychopathology going on (probably Anti-Social Personality Disorder, and more that's diagnosable besides) is the fact that when he killed people, he felt nothing at all, not even the triumph of having killed like he had wanted (which you might find in someone who had a lot of unchanneled anger). The person he killed meant nothing to him, not even worthy of being an evil person in the service of some unjust cause. Not even worthy of being hated. Not even feeling like, "hey, I just saved my buddies from that guy trying to blow us all up." It was almost like he was bored with it.

Now, people may not feel something when they kill due to being numb, shell-shocked, or from having had enough experiences of working out the moral justification for why they are doing what they are doing. But this response of his is extreme and was not the response of repeated kills in combat. This was his first kill.

So, when we try to understand this guy, we've got to realize that we aren't dealing with a healthy psyche.

You can fight and kill for two reasons: hatred and love. You may love your own country and family, love the idea of freedom and fight for these. You may hate oppression and terrorism, and you may fight against them. These are all adaptive. But, you may love to kill. You may love to inflict pain. You may hate a racial or religious group, and want to obliterate them. These are maladaptive, and cannot be trusted. No matter how good the soldier is, if these were his motivations I would not want him on my team.

Sadly, though, there are branches of the US (and other countries) armed forces that really don't screen for this type. They are often highly competent in their killing, and thus little effort is made to screen for them. However, with them it is only a matter of time until they cross the line between "soldier" and "murderer."

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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
Was anyone else reminded of Full Metal Jacket?

"Private Joker, why'd you join my beloved corps?"
"Sir, to kill, sir!"
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 
Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
But a soldier must, by his definition, have a certain relaxed attitude towards killing. Just like a racecar driver can't be the queezy type. Every soldier, whether he's American or Iraqi or whatever, must be willing to kill. You can't fault soldiers for that, they are filling a (generally) necessary role. What you can do is fault the role itself, the institution itself, but at worst I see it as a necessary evil.

For example, an American goes to Iraq and kills Iraqis and doesn't feel remorse. An Iraqi insurgent comes along and kills the soldier. Now to be anti-violence in general would condemn both men for their actions themselves, not the purpose of their actions. But neither of the two should be condemned, but the insitution to which they belong and the purpose of their use of violence is in one case legitimate and in the other not. So my general attitude is that killing is not what must be judged, but the reasons behind the killing.

 

Offline Sphynx

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I agree with what you are saying, Rictor. As I have said, there is a difference between a soldier and a murderer. But even a soldier can become a murderer when he steps outside of his role, when his killing exceeds the realm of combat, duty, and conventions of warfare and enters the realm of personal pleasure, compulsion, and appetite.

A soldier must learn to come to peace with the killing in his job. I agree with you 100% on that point. I will not debate the morality of warfare here, that is not my point, but regardless, if a soldier is to remain a soldier and not go psychotic or become suicidal, he must find a way to make what he is doing fit into what he values. I don't fault soldiers for that at all. I am glad that they are able to do it. They have a hard job, and I respect them for what they do.

Getting back to the point, it is not the fact that that Private Green had a relaxed attitude about killing that is the problem or that is disturbing to me. As I said, many soldiers have come to peace with their killing due to concepts like "justice," "defending freedom," "self-defense against a malignant enemy," and so forth, and these are concepts I believe in. Being willing to kill is not pathological. It is a surivial instinct that we all must have. If only the crazies were willing to kill, everyone sane in the world would be dead before too long. :)

The problem I see with Private Green was not that his attitude was relaxed. In fact, his attitude, if anything, was "hungry" or "lustful." He thirsted for blood. That is different than having a relaxed attitude about it. So, I certainly hope that it didn't sound like I was trying to say that the relaxed attitude that many soldiers develop about killing is a sign of pathology. It is what they must do to survive.

As I see it, Private Green was extremely dissapointed when his bloodlust was not satiated by his first combat kill (as was to be expected). He was left feeling bored and unfulfilled. He hadn't come to peace with it. He didn't feel relaxed by it. He didn't feel indifferent about it. He was dissapointed by it. That is a very different thing.

So, what he did next was actually sadly predictable: he escalated.

I see this sort of thing in my work with sexual addicts all of the time. The guy starts out with soft porn, then heavy porn, then perhaps some deviant porn, or he starts stalking somebody or having serial affairs, and so on and so forth until something heinous happens or he gets caught. It is all driven by a similar dynamic: the "dosage" is not enough, and somehow doing things that are increasingly outside of the realm of what is acceptable by society turns up the "dosage." It's a very compulsive type of thing.

One can only assume that what he did was stepwise. He may have tried more brutal kills against military targets, he may have become "casual" about firing with civilians in the combat zone, I don't know the details.But what he ultimately did was his final escalation: crossing the boundary between soldier and murderer in an attempt to satisfy that appetite that he had been cultivating for years. The sad thing is, even if he found this fulfilling, he would only want more after that. This sort of compulsive, addictive appetite cannot be satisfied by acting upon it. And can only be quenched by rerouting and finding adaptive ways to fulfill the needs for which the compulsion is acting as a maladaptive coping attempt.

It was a good thing he was caught when he was.

So, in all fairness: this thread was started out with the caption: "A disturbing look into the mentalities of soldiers in Iraq." To be fair and accurate, all we can say is "a disturbing look into the mentality of one sociopathic soldier in Iraq." Certainly, it is not fair to take the actions and mindset of a person who is clearly pathological and generalize it to all of the soldiers there.

The sad points made by this soldier's case can be taken, but it loses its validity when it's proper frame of reference is over-extended. I think what this punctuates is not the "brutality of American soldiers," but rather the danger of certain personality types that would seek to enter the armed forces of any nation, and the necessity of screening them out, regardless of how efficient they are at their jobs.

I think it also bears recognition that this type of personality profile is very common among captured members of terrorist groups who have been psych-evaled.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 02:44:22 pm by Sphynx »
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Offline Charismatic

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I know some ppl joining the army just to kill some ****ing iraqies.
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Offline Grug

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I know some ppl joining the army just to kill some ****ing iraqies.

Is that in an approving or condemning tone?

 

Offline pecenipicek

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
i'm wondering why iraquis didnt beat the crap out of the americans yet... its like they dont care who is ruling anymore, they just want to live, they dont want to fight at all, and as it looks like now, they actuially had some little security under hussein...


now its just to decide by who you're gonna get killed...
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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
Well, to be perfectly honest, the US Army and Marine Corps have **** for background checking. The reasons for that are two-fold. The Army, because they need to meet quotas to keep up their budget. They just want as many people in there, no matter what. It dosen't matter if you have physical problems, mental problems, are a drunk, an ex-con, whatever. They'll take you. Not only because they want to make quota, but in a lot of cases they can re-mold them into being productive members of socicety. The Air Force and Navy, however, have extremely comprehensive checks. Why? Because of the hardware they deal with. In the Marines and Army, your just a grunt. Yeah, there are many jobs, but if your not that smart, they'll just give you a gun and a prayer. In the Air Force and Navy, you are working with machinery and technology that is extremely complicated and worth a hell of a lot more than some dumbass soildier.

The Marines, on the other hand, let people in because not everyone is going to make it through basic. It's a better way to seperate the weat from the chaff than a simple background check. Why? Because no matter what, people always revert back to their old ways. And, in the Marines, if you **** up big in basic, you're out. No questions. And bootcamp does chance people, a lot. My younger brother is a PFC in the USMC, and boot changed him. A lot for the better, too. He says that a lot of the people who went through it that were ****ups, got straightened out.

In the case of Green... Well, I can kind of see where he is coming from. I mean, he is in a country that has people who do not discreminate who they kill. If you look at it, they'll go after anyone who is white and speaks English, in the military or not. They'll kill people on TV, bomb busses filled with innocents to get at one person, they'll go to the ends of the world to make our lives over there miserable. What do we do? Well, not a lot really. I mean, we say we'll stay the resolve and all that crap and whatever. Those people don't listen to words, they listen to actions. They'll respond, and maybe even get a little scared, if we kill a few innocents. I mean, it might make them think before they do more. It's not something I agree with, not at all. But all those people see is an eye for an eye, and thats it. They dont want to negoitate. Yes, we kill their leaders, but more just keep coming and coming. If we kill some of their people, they might think again.
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Offline Mars

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I don't think this Pvt is representitive of most of the soldiers in Iraq

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
this was the reason i attempted to join the marines, but when they got my psycological profile they decided not to let me in. oh well :D
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Offline Charismatic

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I know some ppl joining the army just to kill some ****ing iraqies.

Is that in an approving or condemning tone?
Well, i think the war is waste of money\time. I think 'go ahead and kill those ****in iraqies', as they are of no matter to me. I think military sux. Goverment spys on us and sux. Yay for NASA (unrelated comment).
I, I like girls.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I know some ppl joining the army just to kill some ****ing iraqies.

Is that in an approving or condemning tone?
Well, i think the war is waste of money\time. I think 'go ahead and kill those ****in iraqies', as they are of no matter to me. I think military sux. Goverment spys on us and sux. Yay for NASA (unrelated comment).
I, I like girls.

:wtf: How stoned are you? Or are you actually being racist/anarchist/peacenik?

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
I know some ppl joining the army just to kill some ****ing iraqies.

Is that in an approving or condemning tone?
Well, i think the war is waste of money\time. I think 'go ahead and kill those ****in iraqies', as they are of no matter to me. I think military sux. Goverment spys on us and sux. Yay for NASA (unrelated comment).
I, I like girls.

Ah, but do girls like a semi-literate hick?  (unrelated comment)

 

Offline Harbinger of DOOM

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
They miss filling jolly foreigners with hot lead and have to rejoin the army?
No,
they kill innocent civilian immigrants instead.
Sickening.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
Quote
They miss filling jolly foreigners with hot lead and have to rejoin the army?

I blieve you mean "Johnny Foreigner"............
I think the best way of solving this situation, would to be a bit more like WW1 British officers, As long as no rules are broken fine, as soon as someone messes about, *BLAM* to the face :snipe:
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
They miss filling jolly foreigners with hot lead and have to rejoin the army?
No,
they kill innocent civilian immigrants instead.
Sickening.

You have any basis for that claim, or are you just bashing the military or veterans because you can?
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
this was the reason i attempted to join the marines, but when they got my psycological profile they decided not to let me in. oh well :D
Now, why does that not surprise me in the least, mister 'nuke the word and let God sort 'em out'? :p

You have any basis for that claim, or are you just bashing the military or veterans because you can?
On a side note, i've always wondered why we hold veterans in such high esteem. I mean, sure, there are your heroes who do risk their lives for their mates, that's commendable. But for the average veteran, what's there beyond 'I killed foreign people because someone told me to, and didn't get my knackers shot-off'. Why does that elicit respect?

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: "I came to Iraq here because I wanted to kill people." Pvt Green (502nd)
You have any basis for that claim, or are you just bashing the military or veterans because you can?
On a side note, i've always wondered why we hold veterans in such high esteem. I mean, sure, there are your heroes who do risk their lives for their mates, that's commendable. But for the average veteran, what's there beyond 'I killed foreign people because someone told me to'. Why does that elicit respect?

Substitute "killed foreign people" with "put myself in harm's way" and you'll understand why I hold them in high respect.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!