[karajorma]

 

Condemn away then - we're barbaric animals who need that fix of Palestinian (or just regular Arab) blood in the morning before we're really truly awake. We deserve every bit of condemnation, since we're trying to start a war, ruin the lives of millions, and - oh, hey - we prefer having mortars rain down on our towns to the obvious solution of giving them everything they claim they want, because hey, that just makes life so fun!

Yeah. You're just like the other side. After all they aren't human they're muslims. They have the muslim mindset. They couldn't possibly want peact. They couldn't possibly want security. They couldn't possibly want to have a picnic on the beach without getting blown up. All the Palestinians care about is finishing Hitler's work right?


What absolute bollocks. The fact is that the media doesn't make us hate Israel. I don't hate Israel. I don't think you're evil or monsters but the fact is that you need to realise that after 50 years of this **** you are no closer to solving the problem than you were at the start. And if you keep doing this you'll be no closer in another 50 years time. And the only way that will happen is if Israel realise that they are a big part of the problem.

[vyper]

Oh god. Every bloody topic about the Israel conflict is full of hypocrisy and double-sided morale. Topics like this should be locked.

See this is why I don't like you as an admin. Sorry Fury, but that post was no better than the "PostCount++;" ones made earlier.

I can't believe this. You're not seriously condemning Sandwich for having strong emotions against the media? This is the same media, mind you, that looks at the deaths of Israeli civilians and soldiers and the attacks on Israeli towns and cities and then telling members of the IDF that the blood should be on their hands.

As far as I can tell the media is simply reporting the situation as it is. While Hezbollah are firing rockets into Israel and causing in the region of 100 deaths (or just under), the Israelis are firing heavy ordinance into Lebanon and killing about 600 civilians. Now, if the truth of those numbers makes Israel look bad then its not the medias fault. Then again, I've only watched the BBC for coverage of this so I can't comment on other outlets bias.

I'm condeming Sandwich for being blind to the fact that some in the media are reporting the reality of the situation rather than deliberately spinning it in a way that condems his countrymens actions.

What absolute bollocks. The fact is that the media doesn't make us hate Israel. I don't hate Israel. I don't think you're evil or monsters but the fact is that you need to realise that after 50 years of this **** you are no closer to solving the problem than you were at the start. And if you keep doing this you'll be no closer in another 50 years time. And the only way that will happen is if Israel realise that they are a big part of the problem.

QFT

[Bobboau]

"While Hezbollah are firing rockets into Israel and causing in the region of 100 deaths (or just under), the Israelis are firing heavy ordinance into Lebanon and killing about 600 civilians."

Hezbollah has been dooing it for years, is aiming for the civilians.
Israel is reacting to an atack, and aiming for rocket launchers wich just so happen to have been placed on top of daycare centers and schools.

someone posted on here that what israel is doing is like going into a crowded room and spraying it with machinegun fire to kill one person hideing there. even exepting that analogy I'd side with that group over the one spraying machinegun fire into a crowded room to kill as many inncent people as posable out of sheer spite.

Why was Hezbollah allowed to use Lebinon as a missle launching base? why is it such a shock that when country A fires missles into country B that country B would retaliate?

[Mefustae]

Why was Hezbollah allowed to use Lebinon as a missle launching base?

That's actually a pretty good damned question. Why exactly to the Lebanese civilians simply allow Hezbollah to set up their rockets right outside their houses and fire off a few, now more than ever?

You can answer that yourselves.

[karajorma]

someone posted on here that what israel is doing is like going into a crowded room and spraying it with machinegun fire to kill one person hideing there. even exepting that analogy I'd side with that group over the one spraying machinegun fire into a crowded room to kill as many inncent people as posable out of sheer spite.

Even when the option is there to solve the problem without machine gun fire?

You see that's the problem we have with Israel. It's not that they use a military option because they have no choice. It's that they use a military option because they choose not to use a diplomatic one.

[aldo_14]

"While Hezbollah are firing rockets into Israel and causing in the region of 100 deaths (or just under), the Israelis are firing heavy ordinance into Lebanon and killing about 600 civilians."

Hezbollah has been dooing it for years, is aiming for the civilians.
Israel is reacting to an atack, and aiming for rocket launchers wich just so happen to have been placed on top of daycare centers and schools.

someone posted on here that what israel is doing is like going into a crowded room and spraying it with machinegun fire to kill one person hideing there. even exepting that analogy I'd side with that group over the one spraying machinegun fire into a crowded room to kill as many inncent people as posable out of sheer spite.

Why was Hezbollah allowed to use Lebinon as a missle launching base? why is it such a shock that when country A fires missles into country B that country B would retaliate?

Why ask which act is worse when the side-effect of both is death?  Is the death of 700+ civillians with good intentions worse than about 100 with the worst intentions?  Does this even matter when innocent people are being killed for no good reason?

EDIT; is there any truth to the rumour (rumour / statement?) that Hezbollah have currently killed more Israeli soldiers than civillians?

[IPAndrews]

Let's play the Isreali PM game! (tm)

a) Do nothing. Continued deaths over a long period. Send out a message inviting more.
b) Do something. Lots of deaths. Maybe an end to it.

Please choose.

[IPAndrews]

Anyway shouldn't this stuff be in the other thread? 

[aldo_14]

Anyway shouldn't this stuff be in the other thread? 

yes

Oh, and you forget the current course of action (by both sides)
c) Do something.  Lots of death.  Accelerates and perpetuates violence, providing a justification for more and more death for the next 20 years or so.

[Sandwich]

As far as I can tell the media is simply reporting the situation as it is. While Hezbollah are firing rockets into Israel and causing in the region of 100 deaths (or just under), the Israelis are firing heavy ordinance into Lebanon and killing about 600 civilians. Now, if the truth of those numbers makes Israel look bad then its not the medias fault. Then again, I've only watched the BBC for coverage of this so I can't comment on other outlets bias.

I'm condeming Sandwich for being blind to the fact that some in the media are reporting the reality of the situation rather than deliberately spinning it in a way that condems his countrymens actions.

You see, that's (one of) the problem(s) I'm trying to get at here. The BBC is not simply reporting the numbers. They are giving prominence to the Israeli attack on Hezbollah targets, and nearly no room whatsoever to the ongoing barrage of rockets on Israeli towns and cities.

I'm feeling very condemned right now, by the way. I'm liable to get all choked up. There might even be tears.

You see that's the problem we have with Israel. It's not that they use a military option because they have no choice. It's that they use a military option because they choose not to use a diplomatic one.

Wow. I mean, really... wow. You're brilliant. Diplomacy. How did we not think of that one?

Name one time when a diplomatic avenue worked with an Islamic terrorist organization.

Name one time when they took the hand we have had stretched out in peace for the past 58 years.

Name one time when they reneged on their commitment to destroy the "Zionist entity."

Name one time when those f***heads returned one of our kidnapped soldiers alive.

Are you really that blind?

[karajorma]

Of course Israel has thought of the diplomatic option. They're not willing to do it though because giving back the occupied terratories pisses off voters like yourself who believe you have a God-given right to that land.

And as for the rest of your claims the protestants could have made similar claims about the catholics in Northern Ireland and visa versa.

[aldo_14]

The BBC are giving prominence to an Israeli invasion of Lebanese territory because - guess what - a lot of innocent people are being killed by it.  Given that we value lives equally (We do, don't we?), shouldn't coverage be proportionally aligned along with the number of civillian deaths?

Of course, if you look at the BBC lead item, it states the number of deaths, and what's most important in the political context, etc.  Because the key news here, is not that there are rockets landing on Israel,but that there is an immenent humanitarian disaster, and the possibility of a region-wide conflict.

I'd note, again, that the BBC has given prominent TV coverage to rocket attacks on Israel; but in the present context it is far, far more important in an international context to report what is happening in Lebanon; especially because it's only strengthening support for Hezbollah (and a key part of the political context is the influence Hezbollah has over the people of Lebanon,especially if you actually want to a) have a democratic Lebanon and b) have that Lebanon capable of 'managing' Hezbollah).

EDIT; a side note; the majority of the worlds' opinion being against Israel doesn't constitute support for Hezbollah.  It constitutes condemnation for an attack on the civillian population of Lebanon, including the democratic government, in response to the act of a 3rd party terrorist group.  We expect Israel, as a free, democratic, stable country, to act to a high moral standard.  Many people, I think, view Israels actions as immoral, excessive, self defeating and dangerous for global stability.

[IPAndrews]

I'm feeling very condemned right now, by the way. I'm liable to get all choked up. There might even be tears.

Not everyone is condemning you. Some people appreciate the cold difficult decisions life throws at you and that sometimes you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Actually though doesn't that mean you're damned? Is that as bad as being condemned?

[Nuclear1]

EDIT; a side note; the majority of the worlds' opinion being against Israel doesn't constitute support for Hezbollah.  It constitutes condemnation for an attack on the civillian population of Lebanon, including the democratic government, in response to the act of a 3rd party terrorist group.  We expect Israel, as a free, democratic, stable country, to act to a high moral standard.  Many people, I think, view Israels actions as immoral, excessive, self defeating and dangerous for global stability..

And what power did said government actually have before the invasion? Had the government or army had any control over Hezbollah or actually done anything to keep it quiet, do you really think Israel would have had to invade? Israel knew that the government wouldn't have been able to do anything to control Hezbollah, and the only force that was going to stop them was Israel.

Of course Israel has thought of the diplomatic option. They're not willing to do it though because giving back the occupied terratories pisses off voters like yourself who believe you have a God-given right to that land.

It's not entirely that and you know it, kara. Like Sandwich said, everytime Israel gives land back, organizations such as Hamas move in and use the newly-acquired territory to further their attacks on Israel. As a result, more Israelis die, and more Palestinians die as a result of the Israeli counterattack.

Whether the Palestinians want Israel wiped off the map makes no difference; they just happen to be the group in closest proximity to Israel. Iran's still calling for the utter destruction of Israel, and has furthered this by funding and supplying Hezbollah. Same goes with Syria. The Palestinians that voted in the peace-seeking government ( ) might not want Israel destroyed, but a lot of other Arab countries still do.

Israel at the very least attempts to do something for peace; they've been giving up land, haven't they? It's groups such as Hezbollah and other militant organizations that **** the whole thing up and force Israel to take action.

[aldo_14]

EDIT; a side note; the majority of the worlds' opinion being against Israel doesn't constitute support for Hezbollah.  It constitutes condemnation for an attack on the civillian population of Lebanon, including the democratic government, in response to the act of a 3rd party terrorist group.  We expect Israel, as a free, democratic, stable country, to act to a high moral standard.  Many people, I think, view Israels actions as immoral, excessive, self defeating and dangerous for global stability..

And what power did said government actually have before the invasion? Had the government or army had any control over Hezbollah or actually done anything to keep it quiet, do you really think Israel would have had to invade? Israel knew that the government wouldn't have been able to do anything to control Hezbollah, and the only force that was going to stop them was Israel.

Well, now they have precisely bugger all power, and any chance they did have of organizing a peaceful disarmament and democratisation of Hezbollan has been well and truly destroyed.  In fact, I would not be surprised if the next elections didn't see a Hezbollah majority.

After all, the whole problem ws that the government of Lebanon was too weak to assert itself 'over' Hezbollah, because doing so would see a civil war.  But the way to correct that is not to strengthen Hezbollah by giving them the justification to exist, but to support and reinforce the democractic process and elected government.

[Sandwich]

The problem is that Hezbollah is calling the shots. They know that Israel will defend her citizens, so they ensure that the targetted damage Israel metes out damages innocent civilians, and has plenty of media coverage, to boot.

Anyway, this should continue in that other thread. The original topic of this thread is more relevant to this: http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message/2006_04.htm

[aldo_14]

Oh good, a story effectively calling for the extermination of an entire race of people (and the removal of basic freedoms in facilitating this) because they are 'a threat'. 

Where have i heard that before?

[Sandwich]

It's merely one man's fictional projection of a possible future. Does it bother you? Scary, ain't it?

[aldo_14]

It's merely one man's fictional projection of a possible future. Does it bother you? Scary, ain't it?

Yes, but not in the sense you're thinking........

[Bobboau]

well neither party has taken that opption, so I'm still forced to chose between the two opptions 'kill innocent to get guilty' vs 'kill innocent for it's own sake'. nobody there has decided to take the 'don't ever kill innocent' opption so I can't use that, the only opptions I have are 'bad things for good reasons' or 'bad things for bad reasons' when I am forced to choose support for one of these two groups I must choose the lesser of the two evils, or support neither.

[edit]wow, I like totaly missed the second page...