Author Topic: Impartiality? [long]  (Read 6875 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ]C[rusader

  • 24
  • Ouch.
Impartiality? [long]
Snipped from an Amazon.com book review:

"Let's assume the following groups:
1. Those who hate Jews: commonly known as anti-Semites. People in this group can safely be assumed to also hate Israel and Zionism.
2. People who are impartial to (or are friends with or are themselves) Jews, but are critical of policies and actions of Israel, especially as regards the treatment of Palestinian Arabs over the years. Let's also assume that some in this group make it their life's work to research and expose such actions to the relative exclusion of all other issues.
3. A presumed majority of Jews, who admit a certain bias towards Israel, but think of themselves as reasonably fair minded and open to argument (I consider myself in this group).
4. Hypothetical members of a Jewish "lobby", who in the interests of defending Israel at all costs (and possibly self-enrichment) will resort to a number of tactics, including expropriating the memory of the Holocaust for their own selfish ends, and especially playing an anti-Semitism card to deflect otherwise legitimate criticism of Israel that may emanate from those in group 2.
All these groups have many members, but it's impossible to say how many or even the relative ratios... Finkesltein
[sic] would have us believe that he is in the second group. But since people in group 1 would like to present themselves as belonging to group 2 wherever possible, this is hard to take at face value..."

Hm.  Makes me wonder.

Q: "Is it possible to be impartial?"
A: "i do not know... even the very words and phrases chosen can often smuggle in a slant or bias, whether intentional or not." 

Q: "Is it necessary to strive for impartiality in the first place?" 
A: "i think so.  Better to be the open mind that fails in a bid for truth, rather than a closed mind which succeeds in not caring."

With that said, i offer a look at the process used in my attempts to seize truth.  In the excerpt, an author began a book review with what i thought was impartiality.  Then i hit the second paragraph, whereupon the slant of it whacked me square between the eyes.  Worse after that, a rereading of the first paragraph made me realise the hidden biases apparent up there as well.  So i decided to pull it all apart for a better understanding.

Starting from the top...

Let's assume the following groups:
1. Those who hate Jews...
[polemically anti-Jew and anti-Israeli-policy]
2. People who are impartial... [non-polemically pro-Jew and anti-Israeli-policy]
3. A presumed majority of Jews... [non-polemically pro-Jew and pro-Israeli-policy]
4.  Hypothetical members of a Jewish "lobby"... [polemically pro-Jew and pro-Israeli-policy]

... i see a listing of two groups without caveat as to their tangible presence, a third group asserted to be a majority, and a caveat of "hypothetical" upon the fourth.  i would say that this slants the piece by smuggling in a notion of "only three of these actually exist; the third naturally represents most Jews; the fourth is just speculation".  A simple smuggle like that suggests a lack of objectivity in the argument, due to a lack of evidence given for the assertion about group 3, plus the author's withholding of credibility against the very people (group 4) whose presence might most harm the credibility of the author's chosen comrades (group 3).

Next...

All these groups have many members, but it's impossible to say how many or even the relative ratios.

... i find this sentence provides no evidence for the claim of group membership being a case of "impossible to say how many".  i would say that slants the piece by smuggling in a notion of "it's already cut-and-dried that we have no numbers of membership in these groups."  The simple smuggle affects the entire argument's factual integrity; what if there are numbers available, yet the author simply hasn't taken sufficient pains to uncover them?

(Interestingly, the claim about impossibility seems to contradict the assertion about Group 3, i.e., the group allegedly a "presumed majority of Jews".  How can the author know such a thing yet also be unable to "say how many or even the relative ratios"?  But i digress...)

Now, as mentioned, this entire suspicion of bias was only inspired after i started the second paragraph.  Here it begins...

Finkesltein [sic] would have us believe that he is in the second group.  But since people in group 1 would like to present themselves as belonging to group 2 wherever possible, this is hard to take at face value.

i stopped reading after that, because i found immediately that the statement seemed to smuggle an unsupported assertion while also avoiding a significant part of the whole truth.  First, the author hasn't offered any evidence or proof that any members of Group 1 want to belong in Group 2.  Second, the levying of that assertion solely versus the group most adversarial to the author's apparent viewpoint, avoids how it might apply elsewhere--e.g., should we ask whether the members of Group 4 would wish to belong in Group 3?

* * *

Given the above deconstruction, i find myself hard pressed to read further in the author's commentary, since i anticipate more slant and bias of the type apparently found.  Regardless i do still find the piece useful, if only as an example of how a deconstructive process can identify any smuggles lurking beneath an ostensibly neutral statement.

To be fair, i cannot claim this process will prove anything about authorial intent, since the author is the only one who truly knows.  Nor can i claim that my perceptions are necessarily any clearer, or less biased, than those of the person(s) i critique.  All i can say for certain, is that a good analysis will often point to key questions... questions which the author ideally should be willing to answer, be it at least to grudgingly demonstrate good faith, or else at best to cheerfully clarify all points of doubt.
Open foot, insert mouth.

  

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
TL DR
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Turambar

  • Determined to inflict his entire social circle on us
  • 210
  • You can't spell Manslaughter without laughter
so thats why people accuse me of hating jews when i express disapproval towards israel. i always have to clarify, 'i don't hate jews, i hate the jews running israel, as people, not as jews'.

never seems to work when i put it like that though.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline IceFire

  • GTVI Section 3
  • 212
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ce
Just say you dislike the people in charge of Israel...similar to the way you would say (perhaps) that you dislike the people in charge of the United States.  You don't say "I hate the white guys/christians/caucasians who are in charge of the United States."  Its perfectly acceptable to say that you disapprove of the job someone is doing as leader...slightly less acceptible to say that you dislike the actual person...but definately not to stereotype which is what you do when you start grouping by race.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline Turambar

  • Determined to inflict his entire social circle on us
  • 210
  • You can't spell Manslaughter without laughter
actually i do say that i hate the christians in charge of the US.  theyre a bunch of loonies trying to bring about the apocalypse, and i don't approve.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
10:55:55   HerraTohtori: me too!
10:56:01   HerraTohtori: :D

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
It's better to just refer to them as neo-cons, as that's the name those bastards usually go by. Not to mention by saying "the christians in charge of the US", you'll incur the wrath of Char, who firmly believes that Christians will be persecuted, locked up and killed in the near future... or something... :rolleyes:

As an aside, could anyone enlighten me as to why nobody ever really likes the Jews throughout history?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 10:08:46 pm by Mefustae »

 

Offline ]C[rusader

  • 24
  • Ouch.
As an aside, could anyone enlighten me as to why nobody ever really likes the Jews throughout history?

From what i have read (corrections welcome), significant numbers of Jews were viewed as convenient scapegoats for societal problems at various points throughout European history.  The nadir of that branding apparently occurred with the rise of the Third Reich, after the demise of which the Jewish stereotype probably changed for the most part to "victims".  However, upon the partitioning of Middle Eastern territory to forcibly create a Jewish state, the native residents of the region apparently felt justified to renew the "scapegoat" stereotype.  Subsequent political and military actions between the Israelis and their neighbours, plus the interference of other nations, have arguably led to the increase of that regional tension, as well as the spread of it... to an extent where perhaps very few non-Israelis or non-Americans worldwide ever choose to see Israelites as "victims" rather than "aggressors" or "occupiers".

@Turambar:
Quite sorry to hear that you've been stereotyped by others while trying to express your opinion.  It does make a discussion difficult, doesn't it.  i do agree with Icefire's advice about that.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 10:58:57 pm by ]C[rusader »
Open foot, insert mouth.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
It's a common trick. Claim that someone is an anti-semite and you can get away with ignoring anything they've said no matter how correct it actually is.

You only need to look at the various debates on this board to see how often people get accused of anti-americanism for saying that the American government is wrong about something or anti-Israeli feeling for saying that both the Jews and the Palestinians are in the wrong.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
Not to mention by saying "the christians in charge of the US", you'll incur the wrath of Char, who firmly believes that Christians will be persecuted, locked up and killed in the near future... or something... :rolleyes:

where is that "help! we're being oppressed" population piechart when I need it...

74% of the US is christian, 16% of it atheist/agnostic, the remaining are other religions.

Char is an idiot if he thinks
A) christians are persecuted (Though they do have a well documented persecution complex)
B) christians aren't the oppressors
C) non-christians want to lock christians up
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
It's a prophecy, apparently.

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
you know a persecution complex is a something very commonly demonstrated by abusers (IE abusive spouses), when the abused stands up to them they claim to be the victim not the perpetrator.
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
  • Moderator
  • 213
  • Aken Tigh Dekker- you've probably heard me
    • My old squad sub-domain
A persecution complex is a braod term, It could apply to any number of things, but the most common cause is the sufferes initial lack of nuts IE the lack of bottle when it comes to fefending them selves from simple situations, Often scenarios as simple as someone cutting a cue for a train/bus etc will reduce the victim to tears.

You're points pretty valid though.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
From what i have read (corrections welcome), significant numbers of Jews were viewed as convenient scapegoats for societal problems at various points throughout European history.  The nadir of that branding apparently occurred with the rise of the Third Reich, after the demise of which the Jewish stereotype probably changed for the most part to "victims".  However, upon the partitioning of Middle Eastern territory to forcibly create a Jewish state, the native residents of the region apparently felt justified to renew the "scapegoat" stereotype.  Subsequent political and military actions between the Israelis and their neighbours, plus the interference of other nations, have arguably led to the increase of that regional tension, as well as the spread of it... to an extent where perhaps very few non-Israelis or non-Americans worldwide ever choose to see Israelites as "victims" rather than "aggressors" or "occupiers".

Well, I think Jews have always been viewed very negatively in Western history (not sure on Middle Eastern), for example Shylock in the Merchant of Venice.  Aside from the obvious Christian religious reason - blaming Jews for the death of Jesus - I believe Judaism was the only religion to allow money lending, etc, when both Islam and Christianity forbode it; this would obviously allow Jews to establish some of the longest and most established banks, etc, in history, but at the same time would lead to the 'greedy, grasping' etc stereotype ala Shylock.  People tend to resent the people they owe money to, after all.  Whether or not this would be a primary reason, though, I don't know.

 

Offline ]C[rusader

  • 24
  • Ouch.
[nod] Envy of financial / economic clout, does seem to be a very powerful motivator for many people.  If it is true that significant organisations of ethnic and religious Jews have enjoyed a large monetary advantage throughout history, then i could certainly see how that might feed any negative stereotypes.
Open foot, insert mouth.

 
I have my own little theory on why jews have been persecuted throughout history, nothing to really back it up at the moment, but please read, digest and respond:

The vast majority of jewish history has been that of displacement, or people without a "homeland" so to speak. There have been few periods in history when the jewish people were ever really a majority or even their own rulers. As such, Jewish communities would always be tight knit and insular, often alienating them from the majority, which was almost always polytheistic. Additionally, the jewish people have demonstrated a remarkable intelligence and a will to strive, and would often rise to the upper classes of society (if given the opportunity). The insular nature of judaism coupled with their almost uncanny ability to transmute rags to riches would naturally draw the ire of the natives and locals who have toiled for generations with little to show for their work.

As such, the historical persecution of the jews has been somewhat akin to the class struggle outlined by Marx. Jews have had the misfortune of not only being "aristocratic" but also a "different and mysterious" religion, what better targets of the mob? This was occuring LONG before Jesus or his famed death, which I think only gave people a sort of "moral out" for rapaciousness, by virtue of the absence of pograms during peaceful, healthy periods.

The unyeilding criticism of Israel for almost any and all violent acts it perpetrates, I think, is a direct result of the superb "marketing" of the Holocaust by anti-defamation groups. The holocaust is by and far the best known atrocity in human history, although it is by no means the worst (Stalin was responsible for, If i am not mistaken, the deaths of 12-20 Million Ukranians in under 2 years). As such, the world holds the bar for Israel's actions much higher than it would for anyone else, and so every little thing it does that results in the suffering of others is henpecked to oblivion.

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • 213
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
TL DR

Could you possibly be more cryptic? :p
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline ]C[rusader

  • 24
  • Ouch.
The vast majority of jewish history...

Some of that opinion resonates with what i've read, some of it sounded a bit like overstatement or overgeneralisation, and then some of it wasn't covered by what i've read.


As such, the historical persecution of the jews...

Very interesting thought there, about a possible parallel to Marxist ideas on class struggle.


The unyeilding criticism of Israel...

Even though the opinion was announced upfront as being an opinion without support, i'm having difficulty accepting that paragraph, due to the same reaction i had to the aforementioned book review.  i'll refrain from overanalysing, but i do want to ask for elaboration on something: how does the "marketing of the Holocaust" lead to a "raising of the bar"?  i don't quite follow the reasoning there.

* * *

@Sandwich:
i get the impression Kazan may have been drawing a deliberately absurd contrast for the purpose of humour, by compressing "Too Long, Didn't Read" into as short a format as possible, and then appending it to my admittedly lengthy post.
Open foot, insert mouth.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
The unyeilding criticism of Israel for almost any and all violent acts it perpetrates, I think, is a direct result of the superb "marketing" of the Holocaust by anti-defamation groups. The holocaust is by and far the best known atrocity in human history, although it is by no means the worst (Stalin was responsible for, If i am not mistaken, the deaths of 12-20 Million Ukranians in under 2 years). As such, the world holds the bar for Israel's actions much higher than it would for anyone else, and so every little thing it does that results in the suffering of others is henpecked to oblivion.

To a degree I feel that is true. The Holocaust has been marketed by the Jews to a very large degree. (So much so that the next person who tells me that "we need to remember the Holocaust because 6 million people died" is going to get beaten to death).

 As such the world should hold them to that standard. You can't constantly complain that the world should remember the injustice you have received while expecting the world to turn a blind eye to the injustice you cause.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
TL DR

Could you possibly be more cryptic? :p

it means "too long, didn't read"
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Why post such a thing?