Poll

Which Shivan theory do you support? [This poll was closed because a lot of people think that we shouldn't be taking sides]

The Shivan Manifesto
3 (17.6%)
The MindGames Theory
5 (29.4%)
The Reciprocity Theory
1 (5.9%)
Mad Bomber's Theory
6 (35.3%)
Ngtm1r's Theory
2 (11.8%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 15, 2006, 08:08:52 am

Author Topic: Shivan Theories  (Read 4142 times)

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Offline Snail

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I don't really like the Manifesto. It makes the Shivans look like cowards when they talk about a Colossus fleet. Besides, the Sath fleet could wipe out the Colossus fleet if they were quick. And the whole thing about the Shivans using a special warp engine was like saying hippies use vegetable oil for their cars.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Offline aldo_14

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I don't really like the Manifesto. It makes the Shivans look like cowards when they talk about a Colossus fleet. Besides, the Sath fleet could wipe out the Colossus fleet if they were quick. And the whole thing about the Shivans using a special warp engine was like saying hippies use vegetable oil for their cars.

Well, there's a vast criticisms page about the SM already; http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php?title=Criticisms_of_the_Shivan_Manifesto 

(I wrote a big chunk of it, albeit not intentionally for the wiki)

 
I lean toward Nghtm1r's theory (not the theory involving the Nightmares, but our fellow HLP member Nghtm1r's theory.)

It is almost word for word what I thought, though I hadn't considered that whole bit about the NTF. I know it doesn't really answer the "part of bigger problem" bit, but with FS3 pretty well never coming, I've givin up on learning the big secret.
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Offline CP5670

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They all kind of suck, to be honest. :p I like the Mad Bomber one the best, but unlike the others it doesn't explain much.

  

Offline Mad Bomber

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Yay! People seem to think my theory sucks the least! :D

Although, for clarification, I had the Lost Fleet of 2328 serving as the trigger that attracted the Shivans, not the collapse of the two Talania nodes. Having a node get so overloaded with ships that it starts barfing them across spacetime is bound to elicit a few 'WTF' moments among those who detected it.

The event in question was first referenced in the campaign 'Awakenings', in which the GTD's Iowa and Moscow appear without warning in the Vasuda system, minus crew, after an unexplained 10-year absence. But despite basing it on something that isn't canon, there is a somewhat canon basis for my theory.

It wasn't until the Gamma Drac Knossos was opened that the Shivans really took notice of the GTVA in FS2. For that matter, the Ancients would have had to have lasted long enough to construct at least the one Knossos portal without construction being interrupted. If the Ancient cutscenes are anything to go by, they had conquered much of the galaxy by that point. As of 2367 the GTVA barely controls 30 systems (and three are in rebellion, too), so I think it's doubtful that Shivans somehow keep an eye on all subspace activity. The Ancients would have been trading and conquering and moving about far more than the comparably puny GTVA.

So that, in my view, tends to disprove the 'Shivans are attracted to normal subspace use' theory. If they were, they would have vaporized the Ancients' empire long before there was any chance to know enough about subspace to build Knossoi.


Ngtm1r's theory is a good one, too, and I think there is a good deal of truth in it (particularly the part about them not being able to tell an NTF ship from a GTVA one until Bosch explained what the heck was going on). But I doubt that they're attracted to conflict, per se. For all we know, the Lucifer could have happened upon us by chance, or by detecting some sort of massive subspace screw-up (an accident such as the one I mentioned earlier, or possibly a node collapsing earlier than the Shivans had expected, and going to see what the problem was). Or for that matter, the FS1 Shivans could have been lured towards T-V space by GTI operatives as part of the early stages of planning their coup. We just don't know enough.


None of the other theories (MG, Reci, Manifesto) have enough basis in canon IMO:
* MG quite frankly has no canon-ness (which is not to say that it's a bad plotline, quite the opposite ;)).
* The Nightmares are, of course, not a canon creation, but they would fit the bill of being "part of a bigger problem". I don't think the Reci theory is wrong at all, after all the Shivans did feel they need to have dozens of juggernaughts. But there isn't enough canon evidence for me to openly support it either. That's just me though.
* And the Manifesto... eh. I just can't picture the Shivans being irrationally scared of the GTVA's hypothetical horde of Colossi. Plenty of people have poked other holes in the Manifesto by now, there's no need for me to, really. It's perforated already. :P
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 09:31:11 pm by Mad Bomber »
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Offline Tyrian

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Apparently I'm the only person here who subscribes to the Reciprocity Theory.  I think that's because it falls in line with my own theory.

My theory:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,41400.0.html

It's still a little rough, and it's split over a couple of posts, but here it is, if you're interested.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Yeah, mine is a little misquoted here...
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Offline Mars

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It it? I thought I copied it word for word.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Not really. You kinda missed my point about the NTF.
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Offline aldo_14

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* The Nightmares are, of course, not a canon creation, but they would fit the bill of being "part of a bigger problem". I don't think the Reci theory is wrong at all, after all the Shivans did feel they need to have dozens of juggernaughts. But there isn't enough canon evidence for me to openly support it either. That's just me though.

I'd hope the Reci theory is wrong, actually; it was never supposed to be 'right', just a spin off into my own ideas, and one thats been altered countless times to boot.  That's why I like the MG concept; I don't think there's an ounce of chance Volition had the same idea, but it's simply a brilliantly original concept.

 

Offline Wobble73

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* The Nightmares are, of course, not a canon creation, but they would fit the bill of being "part of a bigger problem". I don't think the Reci theory is wrong at all, after all the Shivans did feel they need to have dozens of juggernaughts. But there isn't enough canon evidence for me to openly support it either. That's just me though.

I'd hope the Reci theory is wrong, actually; it was never supposed to be 'right', just a spin off into my own ideas, and one thats been altered countless times to boot.  That's why I like the MG concept; I don't think there's an ounce of chance Volition had the same idea, but it's simply a brilliantly original concept.

And that's why I support too! A brilliantly original concept!!
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Offline Snail

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I never got the whole 'Lost Fleet of 2328' thing after playing through Awakenings twice (maybe I'm just stupid... :blah: ).

I like the MG theory because it answers most of the anomalies, even if it definately isn't the one :v: thought up. It just seems like a very-well thought out theory.  :nod: