Author Topic: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1  (Read 24637 times)

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Offline Mars

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
A black hole near any source of matter would be extremely bright

 
Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
In that case leave the effect as is, though possibly making it bigger. Apocalypse bombs are far more powerful than Trinities after all.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
A black hole near any source of matter would be extremely bright

No.

Matter near a black hole is extremely radiant - in all areas of electromagnetic spectrum. Even theoretically, the event horizon can only let Hawking's radiation to transfer energy from inside to outside, and that effect is really, really dim. So the hole itself is very very dark... but matter falling through event horizon is... well, completely different matter. It stratches and heatens and starts to emit radiation as it falls closer to the horizon. That's what makes active black holes "bright". This kind of active black holes can be seen from billions of light years away. As we do, actually. The quasars are exactly this.

 :p
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
In that case leave the effect as is, though possibly making it bigger. Apocalypse bombs are far more powerful than Trinities after all.

Yep.Trinities have "only" twice the power of a Helios if I remember well.
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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
i find these nuclear/antimatter bombs very unsatisfying. like a fission bomb can kill anything within 16km of its blast and antimatter should be even better (so torpedos should have 16km+ blast radius. but the helios only does like 100m blast raduis, lol
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
They probably utilize shaped charge technique with nukes, so most of the energy is directed towards the hull of a poor craft they hit. And if the warhead is destroyed in-flight, it probably actually self-destructs without detonating the actual payload.

Though they are still underpowered to be nukes/anti-matter bombs.
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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
yeah they look more like smart bombs to me
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Offline Mars

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
They probably utilize shaped charge technique with nukes, so most of the energy is directed towards the hull of a poor craft they hit. And if the warhead is destroyed in-flight, it probably actually self-destructs without detonating the actual payload.

Though they are still underpowered to be nukes/anti-matter bombs.

5 Gigatons of TNT ain't any small potatoes, especially out of a Fission / Fusion Bomb combo

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
i find these nuclear/antimatter bombs very unsatisfying. like a fission bomb can kill anything within 16km of its blast and antimatter should be even better (so torpedos should have 16km+ blast radius. but the helios only does like 100m blast raduis, lol

It's a game.You can't launch a warhead 50 clicks away and wait,you need to be under enemy fire :lol:

They probably utilize shaped charge technique with nukes, so most of the energy is directed towards the hull of a poor craft they hit. And if the warhead is destroyed in-flight, it probably actually self-destructs without detonating the actual payload.

Yep,like a WWII dive bomb.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
No, it's not. It's a huge amount of energy in real world, but I meant that the bombs (or actually their effects) in the game are ridiculously small compared to their claimed massive yields.

There's no way in universe that 5 Gigatons of TNT equvalent amount of energy released in small spot in very little time only has such pitiful effects as the Meson bomb... if that was where you referred to, I have a faint memory that it was claimed to yield 5 GT of TNT...


Anyway, if some don't know what a shaped charge is, it basically directs the explosive energy mainly into one direction - forwards throgh the unlucky hull that stopped the missile. This can be achieved by many means, but when we're talking about nukes using this effect, the system that directs the yield must be the most expensive and advanced part of the bomb.
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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
yea the meson bomb is actually bigger than a fenris and it cant even kill a lilith or mentu (default damage is 50k)
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
You're not meant to use the Meson bomb for anything other than plot purposes so it only needs to have enough power to kill any fighters nearby when it goes off.
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Offline Mars

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
No, it's not. It's a huge amount of energy in real world, but I meant that the bombs (or actually their effects) in the game are ridiculously small compared to their claimed massive yields.

There's no way in universe that 5 Gigatons of TNT equvalent amount of energy released in small spot in very little time only has such pitiful effects as the Meson bomb... if that was where you referred to, I have a faint memory that it was claimed to yield 5 GT of TNT...


Anyway, if some don't know what a shaped charge is, it basically directs the explosive energy mainly into one direction - forwards throgh the unlucky hull that stopped the missile. This can be achieved by many means, but when we're talking about nukes using this effect, the system that directs the yield must be the most expensive and advanced part of the bomb.

I was refering to the Harbinger, the warhead is only as powerful compared to an unarmored object. Take the Deimos, it survived the initial blast wave from a supernova, so it's no wonder that 5GT can't take it out.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
That supernova cutscene is highly unrealistic. The light would hit the objects first, not... whatever that was.

Still cool, though.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
I think the beams in that cutscene were disgusting. :ick:

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
No, it's not. It's a huge amount of energy in real world, but I meant that the bombs (or actually their effects) in the game are ridiculously small compared to their claimed massive yields.

There's no way in universe that 5 Gigatons of TNT equvalent amount of energy released in small spot in very little time only has such pitiful effects as the Meson bomb... if that was where you referred to, I have a faint memory that it was claimed to yield 5 GT of TNT...


Anyway, if some don't know what a shaped charge is, it basically directs the explosive energy mainly into one direction - forwards throgh the unlucky hull that stopped the missile. This can be achieved by many means, but when we're talking about nukes using this effect, the system that directs the yield must be the most expensive and advanced part of the bomb.


Most of the destruction that is caused by a bomb in real life is caused by the shockwave, not the actual explosion. In space there is no atmosphere to carry to blast wave.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
Indeed, most energy would stay as radiation, which is rather pointless in space where you've already shielded your ship up the ying-yang to protect yourselve from cosmic radiation.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
This is what I think.  Volition probably intended beams to be on shivan cap ships, but didn't have the technology to render the graphics for it properly.  What I think they did was rewrite history with FS2.  To imply that both the shivans and the alliance simultaneouly and independantly developed beam weapons and flak guns and then equiped all their ships with them before encountering eachother again is ludicrous.  What they do is have the player imagines that the shivans had beam cannons and flak guns in FS1, even though they didn't in the game.  Evidence of this is in the FS2 into cutscene.  The Lucifer there fires what obvioulsly is a beam cannon that we're familiar with in FS2, not a flux cannon animation typical in FS1. Now, it doesn't show any of the other ships having beam cannons, but I think they were supposed to. 

What I want to do is reinsert this back into the FSport (unless it's already been done, I'm not that far into playing the port yet).  I've never done modding, but I want to pick it up.  Basically, I'd just leave the shivan ships as they are in their FS2 iteration, with all their beam cannons and flak guns, but the Terran and Vasudan capital ships would use conventional laser cannons.  To make the Terran and Vasudan ships capable of surviving prolonged engagements with Shivan warships, I'd modify the Terran and Vasudan turrets slightly.  I'd designate the turrets that in the FS2 iteration were set asaide as anti-fighter beams or flak guns as anti-fighter lasers.  They'd have a faster rate of fire and better tracking abilities as conventional lasers but each bolt would do less individual damage.  The turrets that in FS2 were beam cannons would be heavy anti-cap lasers.  These would be slow firing, but would do tremendous damage on hit.  Not nearly as much as a beam cannon, but if you got hit by one you're pretty much toast.  The good thing is that these cap ship lasers wouldn't track fighters, but would only fire on capital ships.  The anti-fighter lasers could and would be employed against cap ships, though.  These new lasers would be like the anti-ship guns in Starlancer.  I've never done a mod before, and I have very little time on my hands, so don't hold your breath.  If anyone wants to help me with this (Goober, please?) that'd be awesome.

As far as the shivans ability to use unchartered nodes, well that has a lot to do with what happened in Cappella.  A big clue is when Admiral Petrarch says "Perhaps the explosion of a star is a bridge between this universe and their own."  In the dying moments of the star, it must of created some sort of subspace phenomena that allowed the Shivans to warp directly from where they were to some other location in the universe, or some other univers.  This might be what allowed them to discover us in the first place.  The go around exploding stars jumping to random locations.  They send exploratory task forces into these unknown regions (the Lucifer fleet) to exterminate any life and look for new candidate stars whose explosions create powerful enough subspace phenomena so they can warp to new unchartered locations.

 
Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
I agree with the first two points. I wonder though if adding beam cannons to FS1 would create balance issues. Clash of the Titans for instance. Arm the Tantalus with beams and that mission would become very, very, very difficult.

I always thought that Capella going kaput was a mistake on the part of the Shivans. It's implied that they had hundreds of ships in-system at that moment, seems a massive waste. I think the Sathanases slipped up, and the star was never supposed to explode at all.
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Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: Why there aren't beam cannons in FS1
I agree with the first two points. I wonder though if adding beam cannons to FS1 would create balance issues. Clash of the Titans for instance. Arm the Tantalus with beams and that mission would become very, very, very difficult.

I always thought that Capella going kaput was a mistake on the part of the Shivans. It's implied that they had hundreds of ships in-system at that moment, seems a massive waste. I think the Sathanases slipped up, and the star was never supposed to explode at all.

Balance would be an issue, that is true, this is why I'd have to tweak the missions a bit.  Maybe keep the cap ships further apart from eachother, and give Alpha 1 and his fighter wings time to take out the heavy beam turrets on the enemy ship before it comes within firing range.  Other balance issues can be cleared by converting many of the terran and vasudan turrets into heavy laser cannons that inflict much heavier damage than the original FS1 iterations.  Have you ever seen how long it would take two cap ships to destroy eachother in FS1 without the aid of fighters?  Tweaking the laser cannons would allow two non-shivan ships to actually be a threat to eachother.  Also, by making the anti-fighter turrets less powerful, but have better tracking and a higher rate of fire, these ships actually become a threat to fighters as well.  At this point, cap ships in FS1 are simply big targets that aren't really scary.  The Beam cannons brang them to life in FS2, but by tweaking the laser cannons in FS1, we can bring the Terran and Vasudan ships to life as well, they just won't be as 'lively' (scary) as the shivan ships.

As far as Capella, I do think they clearly intended it.  We may not know what they were trying to do, but they obviously planned it out by the numbers.  Creating a supernova had a purpose besides just blowing up a star, and they were willing to sacrifice a great number of their comrades in the process.