[karajorma]

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1843833,00.html

Traditional playground games such as cowboys and Indians in the heart of America's old wild west are facing high noon after a proposal to outlaw toy guns.

Alarmed by rising gun crime in Dallas, named the most dangerous city in America by the FBI, and by shootings nationwide by police of offenders carrying toy weapons, councillors have advanced a plan to ban replica firearms.

But some see the measure as a "criminalisation of nostalgia" in a city where guns and popular culture are inextricably linked, from the pistol-packing six-shooters in Texas-themed spaghetti westerns of old to one of the greatest television cliffhangers - who shot JR in the 1980s series Dallas?
 
Traditional playground games such as cowboys and Indians in the heart of America's old wild west are facing high noon after a proposal to outlaw toy guns.

"It's a loss of innocence and very sad," said Mike Belden, 57, manager of the Collectible Trains and Toys shop in Dallas. "My generation grew up on a steady diet of TV westerns and everybody wanted to be the cowboy. A toy gun was just part of the costume. If you wanted to be Superman, you had to have a cape, and if you were playing cowboys, the pistol was essential. And westerns taught us lessons. The good guys always won, the bad guys always lost and it was easy to tell who was who."

Others point to the "hypocrisy" of politicians wanting to ban toy weapons while continuing to use gun culture to market the city. Baseball caps and T-shirts bearing the slogan "Shoot JR in Dallas" were sold to try to persuade Hollywood producers to film the forthcoming Dallas movie remake there.

Despite a recent drop, murders in Dallas still run at four times the US average and its overall crime rate has been highest in the country for cities with a population of more than 1 million for eight successive years, according to the FBI.

The council will vote on the proposal from its public safety committee this month. If it is passed, Dallas would become the second city in America, after New York, with such stringent laws about the sale and possession of toy guns. Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.

"I would have liked to see the city absolutely outlaw replica guns, but to get anything progressive done in this part of the country is significant," Rev Peter Johnson, a community activist and supporter of the ban, told the Dallas Morning News.

He said an anonymous donor had offered to buy all the toy guns still on sale in Dallas shops to ensure that small business owners would not suffer financially.

But Mr Belden said shops have not carried realistic replicas for years and that the true victims will be collectors no longer able to trade in valuable cowboy-era nostalgia.

"Most of the stuff we see comes from people's attics and is pretty beat-up but every now and then you'll come across something in good condition, such as a Hopalong Cassidy in its box," he said.

Um. What??!! 

[Fury]

Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.

So, what's the problem? I think it is fair to ban real looking replicas, especially in cities of high crime rates. Of course it would be for the best to ban real guns as well, but americans won't go that far.

[Kosh]

Replicas painted in bright colours or made of translucent material to help distinguish them from real guns would be exempt.

So, what's the problem? I think it is fair to ban real looking replicas, especially in cities of high crime rates. Of course it would be for the best to ban real guns as well, but americans won't go that far.

So real guns are ok, but fake ones aren't?

[Fury]

Like I said, I don't see a problem with banning replicas that look identical to real guns. They should ban real guns too, but like I said, americans won't want that. If nothing else, at least this law lowers the change of someone getting shot because he carried a real looking replica. If someone wants to get hold of a replica for illegal purposes, he can only blame himself for getting shot by cops or whatever.

[aldo_14]

Crikey.  They really are going to introduce the 'Guns for Toys' programme, aren't they?

[Mefustae]

Crikey.  They really are going to introduce the 'Guns for Toys' programme, aren't they?

Uh-oh, spaghettio!

[Mars]

There just seems to be somthing logically wrong with that idea, ban toy guns, but keep the real ones? 

[karajorma]

If someone wants to get hold of a replica for illegal purposes, he can only blame himself for getting shot by cops or whatever.

But surely people who would previously have robbed a bank using a replica will now simply decide that it's easier to get hold of a real gun and use that instead?

Getting a gun is fairly easy in the USA so if you make it harder to get a replica for illegal purposes then people will use a real gun for the same illegal purposes.

[Prophet]

...an anonymous donor had offered to buy all the toy guns still on sale in Dallas shops to ensure that small business owners would not suffer financially.

Ok. Thoughtful. But what the hell would someone do with thousands of toys? Oh I know! It's got to be Santa! I'm finally gettin' me that .357 I always wanted.

[karajorma]

I suspect a diabolical plot to bring the city to a standstill by mailing a mixture of real and fake guns out to everyone

[vyper]

In other words, to avoid having to actually force the Law Enforcement agencies to do a better job, they're taking all the innocent objects out of circulation.

[Colonol Dekker]

Ahah, elimintate the legal objects, arrest everyone, No errors.

Thats novel.....................

[Harbinger of DOOM]

Yup, don't ya just loooovve what the US is turning into?

[Getter Robo G]

That's it! I'm dressing up like Zorro, developing a Shakesperian accent, and will wield the dead frozen goat of justice up side their ignorant heads!

Honest they TRY to correlate MURDERS to toys? Even if we take death by cop into acount that's NOT Murder! Hell the cops (in England I think) murdered an unarmed man on a subway on suspicion alone and never even got a slap on the wrist!

Whoever though this up is mentally challenged (and probably right-wing).

Still it seems only sales in the state are banned? You can still import from outside or internet right?

Even at age 35 you never know when I MIGHT get a hankering for a realistic Rambo RPG or Chuck Norris SMG. (sarcasim) 

[Ferret]

They used to have sweets that looked just like cigarettes and were in identical packaging.
I don't think this is much different.

[brozozo]

How bout that.

I remember all the hubub when this first came up. Apparently, some people thought it was a very bad thing that an ice cream truck were selling clearly toy guns (orange tip, and well, it looked like a toy guy).

My children shall have mountains of toy guns.

[Mars]

No Charlie, do you want the AR-15 or the Uzi?

[n003lb]

I assume the vast majority of you don't live in the states, right?  I can't say I've recently seen a more anti-gun sentiment than what I see in this thread.

I, for the record, despise ideas like this.  I also despise most forms of gun control.  Sure, I don't think that just anyone should be allowed to go to the local gun shop and buy a fully automatic Tommy gun or something, but I also believe that almost anyone should be allowed to go buy a 9 mm pistol if they want, with the proper training.  I don't think repeat firearms offenders should be allowed to own a gun unless they have proven beyond a doubt that they have reformed. 

I agree with Karajorma that this sure as hell won't solve Dallas' problems.  It'll just make the perps use real guns now.  However, banning the real guns also won't solve the problem.  It's been proven here that all bans do is take the guns from lawful owners.  Someone wanting to use a gun for illegal purposes can still get it through other means.  Disarming the public simply makes it easier for the criminals to have their way.

Also, a little known fact that is usually ignored or covered up by media is that about 85% of all violent crimes in America do not involve guns.  Most of them use blunt instruments or blades, not guns.  It's just the guns that get the attention.

BTW, I not only am pro-gun, I have a CCL (Concealed Carry License).  My gun provides me with extra piece of mind, should I ever find myself in a situation where I feel I need it.  I knew a couple that were killed in a random carjacking.  They stopped at a light, two men approached the car, busted a window with a jack handel, and dragged both my friends from the car, then proceded to beat them to death.  The men did not steal anything except the car, which was then left a few blocks away.  No motive, no reason for the attack, except maybe to joyride in the car for a few minutes.  Both my friends were licensed CCW holders, but since they were travelling in a state that did not recognise this, they had to leave their guns in the trunk with the ammo in the glove box.  If they had been allowed to carry their guns, they might both be alive today.  This is just one example of why I am an avid opponent of heavy gun control.

This is just my view of the situation.  It may not agree with some of your views, but it's the way I see it.

[Descenterace]

I don't live in the 'States, but I agree with the above.

I just know people are going to try to pick holes in the argument that banning guns only takes them away from lawful owners. I note that Liberals especially claim that 'it makes it harder for criminals to acquire them' (at least, they say that here in the UK).

What it comes down to is this: who are you going to rely in for protection? Yourself, or the government? And do you really think the Authorities have time to hunt down every criminal? Of course not. The only way to deter the buggers is to raise (markedly) the probability that death is an immediate consequence of a crime. And that means arming the law-abiding majority.

[aldo_14]

I don't live in the 'States, but I agree with the above.

I just know people are going to try to pick holes in the argument that banning guns only takes them away from lawful owners. I note that Liberals especially claim that 'it makes it harder for criminals to acquire them' (at least, they say that here in the UK).

What it comes down to is this: who are you going to rely in for protection? Yourself, or the government? And do you really think the Authorities have time to hunt down every criminal? Of course not. The only way to deter the buggers is to raise (markedly) the probability that death is an immediate consequence of a crime. And that means arming the law-abiding majority.

So, do you support the death penalty for burglary, then?

In many cases, home gun ownership leads to accidental deaths or the gun being turned on the owner; both of which are IIRC more statistically likely than succesful use for defense.  Moreso, it actively encourages criminals to acquire guns (and they can do so legally if not convicted, of course) and to be prepared to use them (as well as creating a big supply chain for obtaining illegal weapons through theft, as seen in the likes of the US).  It also increases the likelihood of murder 'in the heat of the moment'; offhand the majority of gun murders occur because the murderer has easy access to a lethal weapon during an arguement or row, rather than due to premeditated criminality (a gun is a very easy killing device compared to other weapons; it's less personal and requires less physical stress; it's also a lot easier to 'use' quickly before the murderer changes their mind).

For me, the question is whether you want to encourage a civillian-criminal arms race, or whether you want to buttress the systems setup to allow fair justice (rather than, say, vigilante death)?