Author Topic: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation  (Read 5713 times)

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Offline Ulala

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
*crosses fingers*
I am a revolutionary.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Yes, I'm talking out my arse.  Where the hell did I get that date from?

Graham Hancock? I've heard that he's been running around looking rather pleased with himself this afternoon :p

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Offline Mars

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
The Laws of Thermodynamics are a lot like the Law of Gravity... it may be wrong, but I really doubt it.

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Most of these announcements are hoaxes in one form or another. Some of them are caused by bad calculations and some of them are scams.  This one is probably the former more than the latter considering the economics of the situation (the company is not asking for investors).  It'll be interesting to see where this goes if anywhere at all.
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Offline Mars

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Well it could be the circuit is receiving feedback from an external power source (EM energy for instance)

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Assuming that this device indeed features output>input electric power thing, there are a few things that need be considered as reason.

Firstly, we have to remember and accept that the second rule of thermodynamics is not always applicable. Clearly something can come out of nothing, as the whole existence of the universe blatantly tells us. The 2nd law is supposed to be true in the universe, but it's only applicable after the universe was formed, presumably in so called "Big Bang". Some people talk about creation, but the way the universe was born does not really matter. The point is that if t = time, then

t < 0  -  2nd law of thermodynamics non-applicable* 

t = 0  -  2:nd law still not applicable **

t > 0  -  2nd law apparently applicable ***


...presuming that the universe was born at t = 0.

*because time before zero wasn't defined because there was nothing to measure the rate of events, thus there was no time axis yet.

**energy is borne out of (presumably) some kind of quantum balance disruption of Empty, or something similar.

***meaning that as of yet, there hasn't been measurable exceptions to rule. Though that's not actually true, quantum fluctuations of the vacuum happen all the time, they just happen in very very small scale, but they still can create measurable effects.

For example, two metal plates placed VERY near each other are pulled towards each other, because there's more fluctuation going on on the outsides than on the inside. That's very vague explanation, I know, but it gets very complex and it's called the Casimir effect. So the vacuum itself causes a force between two objects... Interesting, eh? The problem with Casimir effect is that it's a bilinear, static force, and static forces are not known of being very helpful in energy production. Gravity also generates a force, but you can't make energy out of gravity force, you can just store energy onto objects as gravitational potential energy.

Now, if the 2:nd rule can be broken after t = 0, it basically can mean some things.

Thers's basically two possibilities for the origins of the energy (if it exists): Either the energy is created in the process or it comes from *somewhere*. That somewhere is either this  verse or some other verse in the multiversum.

1. The device somehow creates similar conditions to Time Zero, thus enabling energy being born out of nothingness. This possibility

There are many things that are against the possibility of a device creating similar conditions to Time Zero. Though we don't know how it actually was at that time, we only know what the conditions were few microseconds AFTER Time Zero. It's possible, but quite unprobable.


2. A second possibility is that the multiversum hypothesis is true, and somehow the device creates conditions where energy is allowed to flow from universe to other. Of course, in this case we have to stop calling our universe an universe, it'll just be a verse and the multiverse becomes the universe, because one of the definitions of universe is that it's everything there is and there's no outside...

This is actually quite interesting, but morally problematic possibility. What if we bleed some other verse out of energy? Can someone do the same to us?

If they can do the same to us, theoretically this device could be used to send messages between universes... I take three bursts of energy, they take a certain amount of bursts... soon you could do Morse with them, if the leeching point happens to be in a place where there are sentient beings capable of wondering why their powerplant output has inexplicably reduced...


3. There's also a chance that energy comes from somewhere within our own universe, by means that are not yet known (yes it's a wide shot, but much more likely than possibilities 1 and 2). Though this is not as inspiring as the earlier ones, it might create new branches of research and possibly new ways for energy transfer. Note that this possibility also contains the dreaded "Goddidit"- possibility.


Of course, that's just presuming that the device indeed works as claimed - a pretty big assume.

More likely the source of energy could be misinterpreted measurements, like different scales or even systematic measurement error that hasn't been noticed. Even NASA scientists messed up with Newtons and pounds as units of thrust with one of their more unlucky Mars probes. Or the manufacturers of the probe's computer did. Depends of the interpretation. Most likely there is some simple explanation for this, but if there isn't, then there are exciting times ahead. Who knows, it might be genuine after all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 06:37:16 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Ace

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
I can only think of the other things science has said were impossible.

Five hundred years ago science knew the world was flat.

Three hundred years ago science knew the Earth was the center of the solor system.

I'll reserve judgement until that experts rule on it.

Worth mentioning, methinks, that 15 thousand years ago the Vedic scrolls described the Earth as spherical and orbiting the sun...

that would be impressive, considering writing hadn't been developed at that point! And wouldn't be for another 10000 years (and that's for the Near East, iirc writing in the Indus valley was a bit later)

That's assuming that you consider Indus script "writing" ;)
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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
I'm reminded of a situation in Schlock Mercenary (I think) where devices are invented that 'create' energy, but are later discovered to be taking it from the past. No one cares until they realise they're impoverishing the present. So then they go and invent a means of taking energy from the future...
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Yes, I'm talking out my arse.  Where the hell did I get that date from?

Graham Hancock? I've heard that he's been running around looking rather pleased with himself this afternoon :p



Who?

 

Offline Fragrag

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
I'm reminded of a situation in Schlock Mercenary (I think) where devices are invented that 'create' energy, but are later discovered to be taking it from the past. No one cares until they realise they're impoverishing the present. So then they go and invent a means of taking energy from the future...

That's Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, forgot which book though.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Quote
Even NASA scientists messed up with Newtons and pounds as units of thrust with one of their more unlucky Mars probes.


They didn't convert miles to kilometers properly.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Nope... it was about mix-up between Newtons and pounds.

Or rather, the impulse exerted to craft by thrusters was interpreted wrongly in Earth. But it had originally no big things to do with distance units, the problem was that the software had a semantic error that caused it to output wrong results, and the base reason for that was that different parts of information's computing processes used different programs and the different programs used different units, which would otherwise work perfectly, but the problem was that NASA tested the software too little (to save money, obviously).

It was the difference between pound-seconds and Newton-seconds (units of impulse) that killed the beast. More reading here.

But that's not actually related to actual subject of thread, I just wanted to point out that even the best engineers make mistakes, and that's exactly why scientific tests must be documented with extreme care so that the conditions can be duplicated and the results can be confirmed by independent researchers. I think this Irish guy did just the right thing when he called for a sceptic board of scientist to evaluate what the device does.

There's a thousand things that can be misinterpreted in a scientific test. One switch in wrong position, and the group thinks the feed 200 W to device, when instead the power is, say, 210 W, and when the device puts out 205 W they are astounded. Things like that do happen.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Who?

The guy who claims that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago and that the pyramids line up to make Orions belt 12,000 years ago. :)
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Who?

The guy who claims that there was a master civilisation 12,000 years ago and that the pyramids line up to make Orions belt 12,000 years ago. :)
Scientologist?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Nope. Far stranger. At least with scientologists no matter how stange and outlandish their beliefs there is very little to prove them wrong (nothing that proves them right either though).

Like I said before this guy claims that the Pyramids were built to line up exactly with Orion's belt as it was 12,500 years ago but who fails to find it strange that the ancient eygptians could figure out what the star patterns were 12,500 years ago, spend years building a monument to that date and yet still managed to build the damn thing upside down.

He also claims that the temples of Ankor Wat are built to represent the constallation of Draco (A star sign that appears to have had no importance to the people of the day) by joining up 12 of the 58 or so temples to make a pattern that sort of looks a bit like Draco. The fact that BBCs Horizon program were able to prove that you could make the constellation of Leo from famous New York landmarks by a similar process means nothing to him.

The best one though is his explaination for why radiocarbon dating on artifacts he claims are from his 12,500 year old civilisation works out that they are only about 4,000 years old. The radiocarbon dating is wrong.

No explaination appears to be given of why or how. It's just wrong :D
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Offline Mathwiz6

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
Perpetual motion would be needed in hitchikers guide, nor time travel grabbing.

Just improbability  :lol:


 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
i dont know if anyone ever noticed, but the universe IS a propetual motion machine. :D
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
i dont know if anyone ever noticed, but the universe IS a propetual motion machine. :D


...no it's not.

1st grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which, when X amount of energy is put in, starts increasing that amount of energy, so that net energy level increases. In this case, the enthropy of the system decreases (ie. energy potential differences are created without using energy to create them).

2nd grade perpetuum mobile is a closed system which runs without energy losses forever. In this case the enhtropy of the system is constant.

The universe (or possibly multiverse, in case the universes interact each other is a closed system) is a closed system, but the entropy of universe increases all the time until there are no energy potentials to draw motion from. In that point the enthropy of universe has reached its maximum level and can't be increased any more, but this is not a 2nd grade perpetuum mobile, because in this phase, the universe "won't run" any more. Everything stops when energy potentials are all smoothened up and everything is just a homogenous space with standard energy level everywhere. That's called "thermal death" of the universe, and it's tho most probable course of future for our universe.

This is how the world ends.

However, it is true that the second law of thermodynamics was broken in the beginning of the universe, but that's quite natural because enthropy is bound to time, and before universe there was no time, so there was no dynamics to be broken.

Most likely the universe as we see it is just a prolonged massive fluctuation in quantum vacuum. It's still quite cool, eh? :D
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
*Snip*

This is how the world ends.
Take that Cortana!


Damn, what is it with all the nerdy-jokes i've been making lately. Sheesh.

 

Offline Mathwiz6

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Re: Perpetual Motion claimed, under investigation
With sufficient improbability, anything can happen, and if the universe dies a thermal death, improbability will come back to haunt it...