Author Topic: Mobius' Cafè,GTD Leda,deck 7.  (Read 12422 times)

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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In fact it's the closest.In Spanish Earth is Tierra,not Terra for example.

Yes? I wrote that it can be considered the closest one to latin, if any. ;)


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I was also refering to mythological names used in FS2.In this case,Italy is protagonist.Petrarch and many other words?Why there's a FS Mission called La Ruota Della Fortuna?It isn't Latin because in Latin we don't have articles.

It is in Italy because it is a well known name for equally well known symbol, the Wheel of Fortune, but it sounds nicer in Italy... And, that term itself does not seem to originate from Latin, so I don't really see the point. :p


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Mobius.The other Mobius you wrote was a surname of a math scholar,August Ferdinand Mobius.


Thanks for information... I always misinterpreted your nick since now... :nervous:


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Latin is derived by Greek.The place where I live(not Italy in general)was called Magna Graecia and was colonized by Greeks millennia ago.Romans met Grekk culture here.


Well, basically as far as I know it went about along these lines: The Roman Republic invaded the Greek, but the Greek level of civilization was higher than that of Romans, so instead of simply "romanizing", the Greek culture instead infested the Roman culture. Greek technology, mathematics, philosophy and religion was all adopted by at that time culturally inferior Romans. Of course in this time the Greek language had its effects on the current Latin, which was most likely quite different from High Latin's current form.

But I would say that mainly the effect was that many Greek words were adopted to Roman use; the more profound linguistic structures of Latin remain quite different from ancient Greek, at least as far as I know.


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Not vulgar Latin:for example,the Italian word for horse is cavallo and it derives from the vulgar latin caballus,but the High-Latin word for horse equus,survives in the Italian equino.There are many other words derived from Greek.

I don't understand... first you say that there is word "cavallo" for horse in Italian that derives from vulgar latin, and also a word "equino" that derives from high latin... how is that related to the fact that many latin words have their origins in Greek?

There are also many differences... For example, the Greek word "tekhne", which is actually the root word for "technique" and "technology" and such, actually means "skill" as direct translation.

And the Latin word "ars" actually means the exact same thing, "skill". Eventually, a difference evolved between these two words and their derivatives; ars became synonyme to art and things related to art, while tekhne and its derivatives became known as skills related to natural sciences and technology (tekhne + logos) became to mean the knowledge or skill of utilizing laws of nature in machinery and devices...

Interestingly, the use of tekhne as related to art remains in one purpose - there are different artistic techniques, or ways to do achieve artistic end result. Or, as a "skill". :nod:

So while there are a lot of similarities between Greek and Roman cultures and languages, there are also glaring differences, and it's not good to only notice the similarities and disregard the differences just because it suits the cause... ;7

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Here we all study Latin ans someone may choose to study Greek too(I'm not,but my mom has studied it).It's basically imposed.

Latin used the word Terra not to descrive our planet.
We use it for that purpose,however.

Hey, that's really cool! I wish we were taught Latin instead of Swedish... It would be really interesting and would help a lot to find out the etymologies behind every day words and whatnot.
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Offline Christopherger

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LieutenantGeneral, Sir,
sorry my Italian is poor at best, I meant indeed to say good morning and thank you.

I am enjoying the discussoin of Classical languages and cultures as I have been a fascinated tho amateur student and researcher in both Roman and Greek history, cultures, arts, and military history for many years, indeed right now I am working with a collegue on Roman economics and organizational practices in the late Republic and Empire.

Roman culture and history and Latin language derived from both Greek and Etruscan, as well as other language roots and lexography in the Mediterranean area, as there were many cultures in close contact throughout the Classical period and they all effected each other in very interesting ways.

Greece had a distinct history and culture among the many city states, indeed, however I would humble consider that both are different ratther than Greece being superior to Rome in culture, they were quite different. It is definitely true that the Romans did find much to learn from Greece and after they conquered Greece after a long period of various interactions, between Rome and the various Greek City States, the principle ones being of course Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Syracuse, and others, much Greek influence happened in Rome, many Greek teachers, philosophers, artists, and scholars were brought to or travelled to Rome, and there was much cultural exchange.

There was indeed much Greek presence in the form of Greek states apart from the mainland of Greece, and colonies that Greek city states formes all over the area:
Cyprus and the Aegean islands, the Aegean coast of Anatolia (then known as Ionia), Sicily and southern Italy (known as Magna Graecia), and the scattered Greek settlements on the coasts of Colchis, Illyria, Thrace, Egypt, Cyrenaica, southern Gaul, east and northeast of the Iberian peninsula, Iberia and Taurica.


It was a complex and fascinating time, for there were many small kingdoms and states, even though Rome itself became a sort of larger organizing entity for many hundreds of years and Latin became the official and unifying language of both politics, and culture and higher learning.  Many modern languages which arose in former Roman Provinces such as modern Great Britain (Britannia), Spain, Romania, France, Austria, parts of Germany, Greece, Asia Minor etc, had much influence from Latin and Roman culture and mythology.

The Greek culture was quite independent and individual among the various states, but overall their mythology and philosphy was humanist and quite sophisitcated in depth and vision. The Roman state arose as an organization that protected and supported a loose league of cities of which Rome was the principal, and this league grew over time to become the larger Roman state. Over time, other cities, states, culture and kingdoms were conquered, captued, joined the Republic and later the Empire voulentarily, and some became provinces or parts of provinces or stayed somewhat autonomous over time. This all combined into Roman culture, which has some uniform characteristics throughout the Empire, uniform forms of Provincial rule and administration, infrastructure such as the roads, and coinage, weights and meausre, trade practices, and so forth. But through out classical Roman history, there remained much that was individual and very diverse about the many peoples and cultures absorbed or part of the larger whole.

Rome remains one of the most intriguing and remarkable human civilizations of great depth, complexity and value throughout its history and they gave us a great deal of what we call culture today, as well as principles of law, justice, democracy and government, engineering, economics, arts, music, literature, religion, and much more.

Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem

Tota Via a Roma propinquabat
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 02:26:28 pm by Christopherger »
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Offline Mobius

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Ubi Herra Tohotori est? :D

Christ:not every road brings to Rome!

I could write something like this or even bigger,but i can't considering my abilities writing in English.... :(

I know,Italian and French are the 2 most difficult languages to learn.If HLP was PLF,and I was English,you wouldn't understand a thing of what I would write in Italian.

Herra:You said a sequence of wrong things.First of all,Romans couldn't conquest Greace before Italy.There was a population here,called Brutii,massacred or subdued by Romans.there was a florid town near the place where I live,and all artifacts are Greek-like even in the language written.

You don't know if La Ruota Della Fortuna comes from latin.In Latin we don't have articles and many other stuff you usually use in English.You said that Inferno comes from Infernuus which is latin.If you "decline"(if C. knows how to translate declinare) Infernuus you have:
Infernuus=the hell-subj of a sentence-
Infernui(or Inferni I think)=of he hell
Inferno=to the hell
Infernum=the hell-obj of a sentence-
Inferno=Oh,Hell!
Inferno=with the Hell and many other meanings.

In italian we have maintained the -o desinence,tipically used for males.Dante Alighieri used it time ago,with his Dolce Stil Novo.
I know that latin is studied in English/American schools too.

Many Roman words derived from Greek,I know,but greeks should have been used only one word for horse.
tekhne:Ha haaa!!! Technology0Tecnologia Skill=Abilità or Tecnica! Sorry!
There are differences between Latin and Greek.Many dialects spoken here have Greek words which haven't changed for over 2000 years!The town where my mom come from,Polia,has a name derived from the Greek Polis=authonome city.I don't remember now but there are several other exclamations which are defintely Greeks,without change.
I use ars only when I say Ars Venandi(skill with(or in,boh?) hunting). :lol:

Of course italian is not 100% Greek/Roman.Many words like Ammiraglio=Admiral derive from Arabian,as well as the numbers we using.

Like in Latin,the word terra means ground,land and Earth,with a capitol t.Latins couldn't use Terra to name our planet.If FS uses it,it's using an italian word.

In your scheme Sardinian dialects are classified as another language...of course!Nobody here understands it!
there's also written that italian drives from vulgar Latin.it's not completely true,because as I have demonstrated many words derive from latin directly.Your scheme misunderstands the vulgar Latin used by Dante,Cavalcanti and Petrarca with the ones used by ignorant people in the Roman Empire.Read Dante's De Vulgari Eloquentia if you need to :D
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Offline Christopherger

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Yes, You are very right, not all roads do lead to Rome now. I just always loved that saying, showed how the world in Roman times was quite connected to Rome and visa versa. 

You make excellent points about the source of words, and the role of vulgar latin, the voice of the people. In the USA and England among the places  I  have lived, there is a more formal language spoken and written and an everyday version spoken among everyone else, quite different.  Great topic. :)
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Offline Goober5000

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Semper ubi sub ubi.

 

Offline Flipside

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Wearing underwear was very important to the Romans ;)

Edit : Took me a minute to interpret that, for some reason I thought it was 'As above, so below', probably the 'sub' part confused me.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 12:35:32 am by Flipside »

 

Offline Mobius

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That's not Latin,it's an Italian with "ubi".

With a kid-level English I have demostrated that Herra wrote here a series of wrong things about Latin,Italian and Greek....
About Malta:it's also a surname.Many relatives from my mother side have Malta as surname,and the accent used by Petrarch was completely Italian.
I asked my mother:I remember one popular words used in her town which derive from Greek directly:
olè (uhm,since I haven't studied Greek I don't know how it has to be written.I need the translator too....)="swallow's nest"

Christopherger is a true culture man.

"Ego Imperabo Universus Mundo!"
"Veni,Vidi,Vici!"
"Mobius Rex HLPis est!" :lol:

<last year we have studied Dante's Inferno,ths monday we'll start the Purgatorio....uff!!!!>
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Offline Taristin

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Carthago delenda est!
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Offline Mobius

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Carthage! :lol:
Is this a new type of word association?

"Per Mare Per Terra"
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Offline Flipside

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That's not Latin,it's an Italian with "ubi".

Actually, on checking my own Interpretation, it appears the Wikipedia agrees that it's Latin..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semper_ubi_sub_ubi

Malformed Latin, perhaps, but still Latin.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Bahh... :nervous:

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

 :p
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Offline Mobius

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I said that,except for ubi,he almost wrote in Italian.

"Mater certa est,pater numquam" :lol:
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Offline Christopherger

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Purgatorio is great, I think you will enjoy that Lieutenant General sir,

I do love your country and all its history, there is much we can learn, and hopefully remember from much of it.

As for being a culture man, I would certainly love to be such, here on this forum I know so LITTLE compared to you all, i am, as Horace said:

Magnas inter oper inops

and one we used to say at the Monastary when the coke machine stole our money:

Machina improba! Vel mihi ede potum vel mihi redde nummos meos!  :)

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Purgatorio is great, I think you will enjoy that Lieutenant General sir,

yes, Dante's work is beautiful. But i liked the Inferno best. I find Purgatorio less intense and expressive. And there are no really good or evil persons. But the end of Purgatorio is well done... although I was very sorry for Virgilio...

"Ma Virgilio n’avea lasciati scemi
di sé, Virgilio dolcissimo patre,
Virgilio a cui per mia salute die’mi;
né quantunque perdeo l’antica matre,
valse a le guance nette di rugiada,
che, lagrimando, non tornasser atre"


I can't speak abuot Paradiso yet because i will start studying it wednesday.
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Offline Christopherger

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Ah yes,

Being the son of a poet, one of my favorite parts of Purgatorio is Purgatorio 19-27 which are something like a "Poets' Corner" in the Commedia; many poets are located there and a great deal of discussion of poetry--direct and indirect discussion--takes place there. Canto 19 with the dream of the Siren, and the end of Canto 20 and all of 21 and 22 deal with the first-century Roman epic poet, Statius, and especially with his relationship to the writings of Virgil. In Canto 23 Dante encounters the shade of a friend and fellow poet with who he had exchanged a set of ironic poems. In Canto 24, a 13th-century poet, Bonagiunta da Lucca, asks Dante how his poetry differs that of the previous generation, and in the answer Dante defines the dolce stil nuovo, the "sweet new style," the term   applied to the stylistic changes of the poets that Dante linked himself stylistically. In Canto 26, Dante introduces Guido Guinizzelli, "founder" of the dolce stil nuovo, and Arnaut Daniel, a Provencal poet known for his technical virtuosity. And Virgil finishes Canto 27 (and the ascent of the mountain) with a valedictory: he remains with us until Canto 30, but these are the last words he speaks.

One of the most important characters Dante encounters in Purgatory, maybe the most important in the whole of the Comedy after Virgil and Beatrice, is Statius, a figure who enters in Canto 21 and is present all the way through 33, he offers a window, a way  to see some of the central values and concerns of the poem.

There is a lot of expression about time throughout Purgatorio: this is the realm where the sun rises and sets, days pass, and souls "pay for" their vices through time. At the end of the poem, considerations of time become broader and more complicated, and Dante prepares us for the next steps.

I am glad you are enjoying this great work of your country. :)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 12:45:06 pm by Christopherger »
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Offline Mobius

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Another work I loved was Petrarca's Africa.Though it wasn't his most important opera,I like for example how he started it,walking and thinking that he should make a work to celebrate Roma.Cool.
Then on its end,when he puts himself among Roman authors...


<I think this is one of the most intelligent threads in HLP>
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Offline Polpolion

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Why is this in the "General Freespace" Fourm?

 

Offline Mobius

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Simply because someone has split martellato's Status check,and called this thread Italiannesnees(boh?)
It can be moved,however...

New replies to your posts....Re:Italiannessess.....last message thesizzler....and this was the most intelligent thread in HLP....
:lol:
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Offline Dysko

This 'ere thread would be me Italian Literature teacher's dream, with a chest full of booty.  The winsome lass says I only play computer games, I'll warrant ye.  If she could view this 'ere thread...
 
Well, thesizzler is starboard.  I think we should ask a moderator t' move this 'ere topic in th' off-topic section o' th' forum on account o'
1) it has nothin' t' do directly with FreeSpace
2) well, it seems we have some pendin' bannin' requests...  :rolleyes:

EDIT: "thesizzler is starboard"!  :lol: Reminds me o' this 'ere year's April Fool!!! Bork! Bork! Bork!
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Offline Mobius

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What has happened here?My message appear more....popular....
th',ecc.
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