Author Topic: Seeking help from PCS experts  (Read 6987 times)

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Offline Nuke

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
does anyone else hate how ts, any version, handles smoothing. you have to use a different material for each autofaucet level, and it never comes out right. most times you cant even tell the difference in game. i really want to get away from truespace.
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
OMG you read my mind  :nervous:

I was battling that earlier tonight, I couldn't get my hunter frigate to smooth correctly, the bumped out panels were being smoothed and never could get it to show up right in modelview.


What I find much much much worse than that.... The complete devil in truespace is you have something selected in LOD 0 group, you go and select something someplace else and truespace insist you stay in LOD 0 group, unless you move up to the correct level  You want to drag a turret into the lod level and it decides to pick something from your current level :ick: :mad2:
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
But then I rebuild the glass reapplied the texture and it didn't complain, so who knows, vertex data could have been corrupted during the conversion from max->3ds->cob->pof.
When I checked it, the cockpit glass suffered the same shattered poly syndrome as the rest of the model. Not hard to imagine that it just had it a bit worse than other parts of the model and thus caused the crash. ;)

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Well it's either shattered geometery, which STL modifier indicates no errors, or the more the rounding in truespace.  Well if I find the bad one and redo it so it doesn't fail and everything looks good in fs2 then theres no error. :)
No it just means there's no visible errors - the geometry itself is still shattered. If you want proof that this shattered geometry is present in game, just look at the attached POF. All I did to your original model is selected 7 random polygons from various places and moved them vertically away from the model and converted.

Of all those, only ONE poly on the right engine's top actually moved the geometry around it in the correct way. The rest display all sorts of errors, but the major ones that make it through PCS are the hidden, zero area polygons that are only visible when you move other polys around as I have here. I'd estimate your fighter has HUNDREDS of extra polygons in there that are invisible. :\

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Course if there are errors then merging them into one big object will just result in a big object with lots of errors then.
The answer is to fix the errors - not just split it into objects to prevent the errors from crashing things. :p

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Well as for this error, I've had it one other time, with one of sagas ships.  I think it was due to it being converted and reconverted over and over that broke something or flipped polys.  I ended up just building a new one that looked like the old one.
I've been converting my ships from .blend => .scn => .cob => .lum => .cob => .scn before converting, and still never had a crash. Converting alone rarely causes problems for most models. If the models have shattered geometry though, then converting them could very easily cause problems.

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i really want to get away from truespace.
Go for Blender!
If you like building via directly manipulating verticies in a wireframe, I've thus far found Blender to be nothing short of incredible in that regard. It gives you whatever degree of control you want, all through keyboard shortcuts, giving it a very fast workflow.

Eg, if you have a selected verticie you want to move around, you tap G to grab it.
From here you can move it around freely and quickly, but if you want differing types of control over it:
To snap it to pre-set grid incriments, hold Ctrl.
To perform tiny free movements, hold shift.
To perform tiny snap movements, hold shift and Ctrl.
To constrain it along any one axis, just tap the axis letter (once for the global axis, twice for local, thrice to de-constrain it).
To move around one pixel at a time, tap the arrow keys.
To enter co-ords manually, just start typing the number of the X co-ord, pressing tab to switch between axes. Enter sets, escape cancels, backspace deletes just the value in the currently active axis. (This is the only aspect that TS does better with the little object info window and how it can take sums. It's not really needed in that form in blender though, so it hardly matters anyway.)
To cancel the move, right click.

Most of those same control methods work for rotating and scaling too. If you forget the shortcut key of any of them, or want to see what else it can do, space brings up the quick-menu.
The new builds can export directly to .cob as well - so there is a good chance we may be able to do _everything_ in blender, bypassing all the conversions completely. I'm currently looking into this, and I'll write up a tutorial for how to do it if all goes well. :D

Oh, and it's also got an incredibly efficient rendering engine, which I've seen manage around a million of polys on an integrated graphics card with only minor chugging - which is awesome for high poly modeling. :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
a new annoyance in ts7, the coordinate box, if you want to change a value, you can no longer hilight it by double-clicking it, and if you dont type the new value in fast enough, resets it to its original value. its very annoying as i use the coordinate box alot. ts7 is also significantly less stable than ts6. other than that its full of useless features which i will never use.

il give blender a go. i like some of what you say about its vertice manipulation.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 01:23:54 am by Nuke »
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
There are some great (if somewhat nerdy ;) ) video tutorials for it here: http://blender3d.com/cms/Video_Tutorials.396.0.html

The getting started ones (specifically the first two) are a must see, and will give you a very solid understanding of the overall ways in which blenders interface works. Once you get that down, you're set.

If you have any questions, just ask. :)
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
When I checked it, the cockpit glass suffered the same shattered poly syndrome as the rest of the model. Not hard to imagine that it just had it a bit worse than other parts of the model and thus caused the crash. ;)
Well this must have occured during the conversion because theres none on the main wing, i went through selected as many all but about 12 then hide them, select those 12 and hide those... Max reported 0 polys, 0 vertices

The answer is to fix the errors - not just split it into objects to prevent the errors from crashing things. :p
Mesh crashes pcs, divide mesh up into logical parts, remove one part from the build until you find which one causes the problem, go back and redo that part (i.e. fix that error, potentional delete it and redo it) then retry. I hope you see I am fixing the error, but first I have to find WHERE the error is.

I've been converting my ships from .blend => .scn => .cob => .lum => .cob => .scn before converting, and still never had a crash. Converting alone rarely causes problems for most models. If the models have shattered geometry though, then converting them could very easily cause problems.
Well this wasn't my model to begin with, it's been with saga for ages now, so who knows what's with it.. Although now most of it is mine  :)

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I'm not sure we need blender, we'd be just replacing truespace with blender.  I'd like to see plugins (for PCS 2) that support truespace, blender, maya, lightwave, and max seperately, so we don't need to go through all these conversations.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
What we need isn't a modelling program rather we need a heirachry program.   If we needed a modeling program we just use max/lightwave (i'm sure lightwave has an excellent vertex manipulation like max does)
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
Well this must have occured during the conversion because theres none on the main wing, i went through selected as many all but about 12 then hide them, select those 12 and hide those... Max reported 0 polys, 0 vertices
Have you done any subesquent conversions to TS that don't result in the shattering effect?

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Mesh crashes pcs, divide mesh up into logical parts, remove one part from the build until you find which one causes the problem, go back and redo that part (i.e. fix that error, potentional delete it and redo it) then retry. I hope you see I am fixing the error, but first I have to find WHERE the error is.
Yeah, I got that and it's a valid practice, though you just plain shouldn't get those sorts of errors in the first place unless something is going quite wrong somewhere. ;)

However, you were making it sound like just splitting it into objects automatically fixed whatever errors you encountered while it was a whole object when you said "Well if I find the bad one and redo it so it doesn't fail and everything looks good in fs2 then theres no error."

That's what I was disagreeing with, because there are still errors. ;)

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I'm not sure we need blender, we'd be just replacing truespace with blender.  I'd like to see plugins (for PCS 2) that support truespace, blender, maya, lightwave, and max seperately, so we don't need to go through all these conversations.
You're missing the point here. :)
If we can do everything in Blender and skip TS entirely, that means we have a single, FREE program for building, texturing and getting models into FS, requiring no new tools or converters!
Yes you can do it with TS 3.2, but it's such a pathetic excuse for a modeler it's not funny.
Blender however is enormously powerful, and VERY flexible.

What we need isn't a modelling program rather we need a heirachry program.   If we needed a modeling program we just use max/lightwave (i'm sure lightwave has an excellent vertex manipulation like max does)
Err, why would you need a separate hierarchy program when all modelers (even TS 3.2) have perfectly good systems?  :confused:
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
The problem is not everyone uses blender.  I personally use Max, theres people that use lightwave and maya here too. I've got blender installed, not too fond of it, I like max's setup much better.

Now maybe if we could convert from whatever we use to Blender then that might not be too bad, course we could end up with the same problems we do with truespace.

Well for me, baring shields I've got the mesh setup before I convert. I just use truespace to setup hierarchy, points and shield. Truespace doesn't even need any object modifiers (outside of shields) for all i really care (oh wait... except for translation/rotation/scale)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 02:36:45 am by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
The problem is not everyone uses blender.  I personally use Max, theres people that use lightwave and maya here too. I've got blender installed, not too fond of it, I like max's setup much better.
I'm not suggesting that if it works, everyone should immediately switch over to using Blender instead of whatever they were using before. No way.
If you like\know well TS, Max, Maya, Lightwave, or whatever just keep using it.

But what about peeps who want to use totally free AND totally legal applications to build models and get them into FS?
Currently they have to use TS 3.2 at least in part, which is utterly horrific and will scare off a lot of potentially brilliant new modelers.

However, if we can replace TrueSpace 3.2's role alltogether with Blender, then that would likely encourage more new people to continue modeling.

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Well for me, baring shields I've got the mesh setup before I convert. I just use truespace to setup hierarchy, points and shield. Truespace doesn't even need any object modifiers (outside of shields) for all i really care (oh wait... except for translation/rotation/scale)
To be honest I would highly recommend working out what's going wrong with the 3ds max exporter rather than scraping it through TS. :\
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
I'm not suggesting that if it works, everyone should immediately switch over to using Blender instead of whatever they were using before. No way.
That'd be like trying to convert the fanatics over at CIC to FS2  :D :drevil:

But what about peeps who want to use totally free AND totally legal applications to build models and get them into FS?
Currently they have to use TS 3.2 at least in part, which is utterly horrific and will scare off a lot of potentially brilliant new modelers.
it's horrible interface scares some of us non-new modelers too LOL

However, if we can replace TrueSpace 3.2's role alltogether with Blender, then that would likely encourage more new people to continue modeling.
As long as we can quickly setup the heirarchy and convert I'm all for it.

To be honest I would highly recommend working out what's going wrong with the 3ds max exporter rather than scraping it through TS. :\
That plus turrets never show up correctly, their always at the origin (0,0,0), plus I'm not fond of the model setup for it.  Baring the rare pcs grumbling at me, the 3ds->cob->pof format runs quite quickly.  Btw I'm not the only one with the "error has occured, max must shut down" error.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
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it's horrible interface scares some of us non-new modelers too LOL
lol, yeah - I was using 3.2 for the first time a few months ago - just seeing what it could and couldn't do. It became quite apparent as soon as I imported one of my ships into it. Whenever part of the ship was supposed to go off-screen, the stupid thing just folded the offscreen part back on - using the edge of the screen as the fold line. Ouchies!

As for using Blender for quick and easy hierarchy setup, I'm not sure about it in that regard. I haven't really properly looked into it yet, but I'd say TS's is a bit quicker and easier to use. Still gotta do more tests.
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Offline Turey

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
i'm with Scooby... I use TrueSpace only for hierarchy. Everything else is 3dsmax8 (I love getting free legal versions from my robotics team!)

I'm working on trying to understand the plugin, but i haven't got it all figured out yet. So in the mean time, i have to go through truespace...  :shaking:
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
i played with blender for an hour and i didnt like it. i dont like the way it tossed my uv data from the models i imported. if i had to learn a new program, id just put more effort into learning max.
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
Call me stupid, but I've found max to be one of the easier to use programs.  Sure it's got tons of tech stuff that I have no clue about. But the basics isn't too hard. The interface is more standardized with Windows  and is FAST, Blender was ok... truespace 3 is fast(albiet ugly), truespace 7 ungodly slow.

Plus moving around in a scene is more my style (scroll middle mouse = zoom, drag middle mouse = move).  Also hit F12 to bring up type in values for trans/rotate/scale is a major plus.
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"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
its got alot of good **** i can use, ive just yet to get my brain wrapped around it all. ive actually started an installation model entirely in max, ive just yet to complete it. its just models i started in truespace id rather finish in truespace.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 05:15:57 pm by Nuke »
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
"Use the stack"... :D

The stack can be helpful, especially if you've realized you've made a mistake or don't like what you've done, just delete the stack entry and start over (especially if it's too far back to undo)

One area I'm trying to figure out correctly is nurbs, although the results seem to be always way too poly intensive.
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"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
Wow! It worked! After converting a Blender-generated COB with a single multipart turret heirarchy, we now have the first Blender -> Pof conversion!
It kept everything too - names, relative scales, centres, offsets, textures - the lot! :D

i played with blender for an hour and i didnt like it. i dont like the way it tossed my uv data from the models i imported. if i had to learn a new program, id just put more effort into learning max.
Blender definitely keeps the UV data - but since it handles textures\materials quite differently from TS, I don't think it will immediately apply them for you.

How differently I'm not sure - to be honest I've never really looked into it in any depth cos the old version I was using could only export DXFs. Now that I know Blender can export directly to cob ready for conversion AND can UV map models very well, I have the incentive to learn it. :D

Blender was ok... truespace 3 is fast(albiet ugly)
You're saying TS3 had a faster interface than Blender?! No way! :p

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Plus moving around in a scene is more my style (scroll middle mouse = zoom, drag middle mouse = move).
I haven't been using max all that long - but I really don't like the view controls compared to Blender or even TS. It's mainly the holding alt + middle-click to rotate the view that feels awkward - is there a way to swap the pan and rotate controls?
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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
You're saying TS3 had a faster interface than Blender?! No way! :p
Actually yes, truespace 3's interface is faster, blenders is a bit sluggish (but no wheres as bad as truespace 7)  You must remember t3 is much older than blender and most likely written in C.

I haven't been using max all that long - but I really don't like the view controls compared to Blender or even TS. It's mainly the holding alt + middle-click to rotate the view that feels awkward - is there a way to swap the pan and rotate controls?
See the bottom right? The circle with three lines coming out of it? Arc Rotate Selected, this rotates the camera around the selected object (btw, when you click on it, it draws a yellow circle on the viewport, with four rectangles, those let you limit rotate to an axis).  For panning use the hand next to it.  The very bottom corner lets you toggle from one viewport to 4 viewports.  Also ctrl+r activates rotate, however I find it's quicker just to click on the button in the corner instead.
 
Quick keys (that i remember at least)
l:left
t: top
b:bottom
c: camera
p: perspective
u :user, 
z: zoom to selected (if none then zooms scene)
Edit: w: translate
Edit: e: rotate
Edit r: scale
x: toggles axis (allows you to lock on a specific axis)
left click: select (deselects if nothing)
right click: object properties and also hide/unhide/freeze/unfreeze
middle scoll:zoom
middle drag: pan
f3: toggles wireframe
f4: toggles wireframe (only works if object isn't in wireframe mode)
f2: toggles highlight selected
f9: quick render
f12 : type in trans/scale/rotate data (you can enter x,y,z values/%)
8: enviroment settings
0 : render to texture
alt  - a: align
alt - z : zoom
g: toggles grid (i don't know offhand the snap to grid)
M : material dialog window
spacebar : toggle object/subobject lock (i.e. you can't deselect, or can selected items)

Edit Mesh quick keys
1: vertex
2: line (poly edge)
3: triangle
4: poly (can be adjusted for angles)
5: entire subobject

Added:
Shift followed by a translation/rotate or scaling will bring up a message box asking if you want to copy, inherit or a reference of the original
V: brings up the viewport menu (lets you select top/bottom/left/right/back/front/iso/persec/camera view)

general hints: once you've found the perfect persepective view, (must be in persepective mode) ctrl + c creates a camera at that position
Normally I just leave the main tool bar and command bar active, and disable the rest

As for blender
I don't like how the left click and drag will move the objects, it's too easy to click and accidently move something. How do you even pan in scene? I found the side, top, user, camera.. but it's missing left/right, back and bottom
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 10:29:08 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: Seeking help from PCS experts
I meant is there a way to rebind the controls, so middle clicking and draging rotates rather than pans - cos I really dislike having to press alt instead. Thanks for the quick key guide though. :)

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Actually yes, truespace 3's interface is faster, blenders is a bit sluggish (but no wheres as bad as truespace 7)  You must remember t3 is much older than blender and most likely written in C.
Blenders interface is as fast as your graphics card's OpenGL speed will allow - ie, instantaneous in everything unless you're running on a really dodgey integrated graphics card. :p

If however you were trying to do everything through menus and buttons rather than shortcut keys, only then would you be right. Unlike Max and TS, Blender encourages learning the shortcut keys from the start - just hover your mouse over nearly any button that has a shortcut key, or look through the spacebar quick menu and it will list the shortcuts for each function.
I know you can use shortcuts for everything in Max also, but it doesn't actively try to teach them to you, so learning them will be slower unless you know to specifically look for them.

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As for the view controls to view from the opposites of the side, top and front, just hold ctrl and press the associated numpad key. Eg, if you wanted a top view you'd press Numpad 7. If you wanted a bottom view you'd press ctrl+Numpad 7.

Rotating is just middle mouse
Zooming is scrolling or ctrl+middle mouse.
Panning is shift+middle mouse

The mouse buttons are reversed from what they do in other programs - this is just how the Blender coders like it by default, but it's a setting you can change quite easily by dragging the dividing line between the menu bar and your scene down. This reveals Blenders 'Options' window. In the 'View and Controls' tab, set the "Select with" option to be the left mouse button.

Also in here you can set blenders free rotation system to be 'track ball' or 'turntable'.
Max uses a turntable system - so when you rotate a model you can only rotate it on 2 axis. The track ball setting allows all 3, but is a little trickier to control.
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