[Freespace Freak]

Oh and even if it cost me 10 or 30.000 soldiers to capture the blasted thing I would do it.

I think we can all be thankful that you'll never be put in a position of authority then.

Lets not forget they wasted an equal amount of men tring to take it out in the first place. So from mi POV sacrificing that many soldiers to achieve such a succes would more then convenient.

It would have taken more lives to capture the Ravana intact than to have destroyed it. Not to mention the fact that the Ravana is hardly likely to sit there and let itself get disabled.

 

[AlphaOne]

Aldo you sure know how to demoralize someone. Whats with all the pesimism? I did not say such and endeavour had 100% chances of succes. But still lets not forget we managed to get a couple of shivan fighters to work. This means that the GTVA does posses some kind of shivan tech understaning. Also for language and stuff we have the ETAK project dont we?

I know they didnt manage to get the engines working but at least they managed to get everything else working like targeting computers sensors etc. This all sugests that shivan tech and GTVA tech is not all that diferent. Sure shivan tech may be more advanced but the tech language is not that different as you asume.

[Freespace Freak]

The ETAK wasn't proven to be able to communicate effectively with the Shivans, it merely proved that it could be used to get their attention, to pique their interest with something else other than them trying to annihalate everything in sight.  The ETAK made the Shivans want to take Bosch and company and then annihalate everyone else.  Whether or not they went ahead and killed Bosch and company anyway we don't know.

[aldo_14]

Aldo you sure know how to demoralize someone. Whats with all the pesimism?

Realism is not pessimism.  This may only be relating to a game, but you should be prepared for this level of basic consideration for any debate in life.  Apply the same shallowness of thinking to a real, non-trivial problem and you will be screwed - hence why I point these things out here.

I did not say such and endeavour had 100% chances of succes. But still lets not forget we managed to get a couple of shivan fighters to work. This means that the GTVA does posses some kind of shivan tech understaning.

Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology?  We have seen a couple of fighters, jury rigged to work.  I can drive a car - it doesn't mean I understand the thermodynamic and engineering principles required to build a new one from scratch.

Also for language and stuff we have the ETAK project dont we?

do we? Even if ETAK works, that has no value whatsoever for interfacing with technology.  In order to have something to translate, first you have to obtain it.  Moreso, ETAK may very well have been 'audio' (the command brief references to Shivan communication seem to bear this out); that's different from written language (a cursory glance at the problems of speech recognition and text-to-speech indicates this, and that's on a level of highly advanced linguistic knowledge of the whole language and its grammar).

I know they didnt manage to get the engines working but at least they managed to get everything else working like targeting computers sensors etc. This all sugests that shivan tech and GTVA tech is not all that diferent. Sure shivan tech may be more advanced but the tech language is not that different as you asume.

See above.  Additionally, there is a substantial difference between a fighter and computer system.  A fighter will have certain common requirements - like engines, weapons, power sources, etc.  A computer system doesn't - it can be build in any way.  Imagine the difference between an abacus and a pocket calculator.  More importantly, imagine someone at the level of an abacus trying to understand the precise operation of a pocket calculator... and even then, the abacus user has numerical knowledge (equiv. to language, grammar, structure - the background of the device) applicable to their study in excess to that of our hypothetical GTVA/Shivan situation.

[Freespace Freak]

He has one point, Aldo.  While I agree with your principles regarding this matter, I think you have a tendency to, (How should I say it?) aggressively argue when trying to prove your point.  I think you should tone it down a little, say your statements without sounding overly aggressive.

[aldo_14]

I apologise for the terrible sin of having the audacity to state an opinion.

[Freespace Freak]

I apologise for the terrible sin of having the audacity to state an opinion.

It's not stating the opinion that's bad, Aldo, it's just the way you say it.  It comes across as if you're talking down to them, I think.  Just dial back the intensity of your tone, is all I'm saying.  Let's all try to be civil.

[Mefustae]

Compared to past experiences, Aldo's counterarguement has been rather tame this time. When you've been around a bit longer, you'll know when he isn't being civil. 

[Freespace Freak]

Right, but I just wanted to sort of let him think real quick because his argument seemed to be heading that way, LOL.  I just wanted to let him catch himself before this thread turns into a shouting match.

[aldo_14]

Name the last time I got into a shouting match?

[BurntCornMuffin]

Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology?

No ships, but we got beams from them and Kaysers are based on their guns.



I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship?  Then we could dissect their technology without worrying about strike teams.

[aldo_14]

Show me one FS2 ship build using Shivan technology?

No ships, but we got beams from them and Kaysers are based on their guns.



I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship?  Then we could dissect their technology without worrying about strike teams.

I'll give you Kaysers, but beams is a guess. 

Albeit it's not clear exactly how Shivan tech factors into the Kayser; there's a difference between mimicking the physical properties of the tech and actually replicating the technology wholesale, I think.  What I mean is, you can discover 'bits' of it - spark new ideas or discoveries from the technology - without necessarily understanding the technology wholesale.  Like taking a car, and learning the wheel, axle, maybe even the combustion engine, but still not understanding ABS, or drive-by-wire style microchips, etc.  That is, learning enough to mimic, or add new advances, without matching the source.  Arguably, the Kayser is (likely to be) inefficient compared to the Shivan weaponry, for example.  (to be fair, the vagarities of gameplay balance can make it hard to be sure about these things - is the Kayser less or more efficient than the storyline states?)

Shivans aren't vulnerable to vacuum (decompression, I don't know about) - one of the Silent Thread secret cutscenes (showing a Shivan in space, jumping onto a Vasudan fighter, and ripping it to shreds).  The description in the Fs1 ref bible for the cut cutscene where the Lucifer destroys the Taranis and, er, wherever it was also describes individual Shivans jumping from the Lucifer and freely travelling through space to attack.  (this is why I mentioned them venting the hull as a defense mechanism).

[Freespace Freak]

There you go, the last post was superb, Aldo!     No more from me on that matter.

One reason to think that beams are not exactly a copy of Shivan tech is the fact that the colors are different.  I think that is because possibly they are using different focusing crystals, or if the beams are a charged particle beam, they use different elements of the periodic table.  So that shows that they are not replicating the technology exactly, merely mimicking it.

[BurntCornMuffin]

Okay...back on the vacuum thing...if you watch hallfight, you can see that the Terrans boarding the ship have exposed skin.  The fact that they're not being turned inside out means that the Shivan craft is pressurized at a leval tolerable to humans, which also means that Shivans also like "Terran" pressure.  If they didn't care about pressure, they wouldn't bother pressurizing their own ship to begin with.  Still...they aren't vacuum vulnerable, so I may be just babbling on this end.

As for the masks the Terrans are wearing in hallfight, I doubt they're breathing apparatuses, but it could be possible so I'll say that they are.  Still, because we have pressure, we have gasses.  The presence of any sort of gas aboard the Shivan vessel, oxygen or not, means they breathe something.  This also means that a Shivan must board a Shivan vessel at some point to take a breath.  So perhaps Shivans hold their breath when they enter vacuum, but they cannot survive for an extended time without whatever it is they breathe...which means depressurization would be fatal to them after a certain amount of time because they'll have asphyxiated without their precious atmosphere...so maybe the depressuization strategy would work?

[aldo_14]

Okay...back on the vacuum thing...if you watch hallfight, you can see that the Terrans boarding the ship have exposed skin.  The fact that they're not being turned inside out means that the Shivan craft is pressurized at a leval tolerable to humans, which also means that Shivans also like "Terran" pressure.  If they didn't care about pressure, they wouldn't bother pressurizing their own ship to begin with.  Still...they aren't vacuum vulnerable, so I may be just babbling on this end.

As for the masks the Terrans are wearing in hallfight, I doubt they're breathing apparatuses, but it could be possible so I'll say that they are.  Still, because we have pressure, we have gasses.  The presence of any sort of gas aboard the Shivan vessel, oxygen or not, means they breathe something.  This also means that a Shivan must board a Shivan vessel at some point to take a breath.  So perhaps Shivans hold their breath when they enter vacuum, but they cannot survive for an extended time without whatever it is they breathe...which means depressurization would be fatal to them after a certain amount of time because they'll have asphyxiated without their precious atmosphere...so maybe the depressuization strategy would work?

Well, pressurization could simply be for mechanical or other reasons rather than comfort (unlikely, granted); perhaps some technology works better in pressure than vacuum.  It might just simply be comfortable to have gases; or useful against previous enemies, such as a biological weapon (this is very unlikely and highly speculative, of course).  The Shivans could perhaps have evolved past a need for gases but keep them for emotional or connotative reasons (related to comfort) - reminders of home.

It could also be that the GTVA performed some form of basic pressurization on the transport before boarding (perhaps not possible with larger ship classes?).     

The Shivans can also possibly store gas internally (i.e. have an innate ability to survive without the physical compromise of an enviro-suit), allowing them to adopt this tactic - or they might just fight to the death and screw worrying about breathing later.  Also, if the Shivans are vulnerable to asphyxia, then they will likely have both defenses and tactics against decompression - it's scarcely inconceivable in a warship, after all.

[Freespace Freak]

Well, first of all, you can have gases at pressures humans would find confortable, but not be of mixtures that would be healthy to breath, i.e. not enough oxygen or too much of chlorine or something that makes the air toxic.  In other words, it has gases, but it's not "gas-free."  (Gas free is a term used by mariners that means that the air is safe to breath.)

That cutscene always confused me because I can't see why the Shivans would have a pressurized atmosphere in their ships, but not gravity.  In nature, you're only going to have pressurized gases where significant gravity exists.  Perhaps they were created by some other species or evolved from a space-faring species that had not yet developed artificial gravity systems on their ships.  So, they would have pressurized space ships, but be accostumed to a zero-g environment.

[karajorma]

There you go, the last post was superb, Aldo!     No more from me on that matter.

I think you'll find that the way BurntCornMuffin phrases things is partly responsible for that.

 

I'm just throwing this out in the wind here, but assuming that shivans are vulnerable to vacuum, perhaps capturing would be more feasible if we placed hull breaches in order to clear out Shivan personnel without endangering the ship?

I can't speak for Aldo but what annoys the hell out of me is people posting assertions with no evidence and no attempt to even consider that they might be wrong. Now compare that with AlphaOne's style of posting and see if you can't spot a fairly large difference.

[aldo_14]

Well, first of all, you can have gases at pressures humans would find confortable, but not be of mixtures that would be healthy to breath, i.e. not enough oxygen or too much of chlorine or something that makes the air toxic.  In other words, it has gases, but it's not "gas-free."  (Gas free is a term used by mariners that means that the air is safe to breath.)

That cutscene always confused me because I can't see why the Shivans would have a pressurized atmosphere in their ships, but not gravity.  In nature, you're only going to have pressurized gases where significant gravity exists.  Perhaps they were created by some other species or evolved from a space-faring species that had not yet developed artificial gravity systems on their ships.  So, they would have pressurized space ships, but be accostumed to a zero-g environment.

Or perhaps they physically evolved - or modified themselves - to operate comfortably without gravity but as of yet have not removed the physiological need for gases.

[karajorma]

Or perhaps the ship in Hallfight usually did have gravity but was damaged when the GTA shot it repeatedly

The handholds in the roof etc could be there for just such an occurance.

[Freespace Freak]

The thing about vacuum breaches is that you'd think that in a space-faring warship, that they'd have air-tight compartments to isolate depressurizations.  In modern naval warships in the US, we set "condition Z" (pronounced Zebra) which means we close all water-tight doors and hatches and isolate ventilation and water systems so that if a section of the ship was blown off, you wouldn't flood the entire ship or loose the functionality of your vital systems.  We could assume that space-navy ships would probably have a similar design philosophy.  Essentially the only part that you would depressurize would be compartments located near the outer hull, while the interior would remain fully pressurized.  Besides, navies would probably have procedures on how to deal with loss of pressurization scenarioes such as skin-suits and such.  Read David Weber, he shows how it's done.