Author Topic: NTF Command & you  (Read 14383 times)

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Offline Mefustae

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Bosch did, though, just like Hitler, or the Japanese military dictatorship of WWII.
I know I should stay the hell away from it to keep the thread on track, but i've got to say it:

...and the Allies. Why do people always forget the Allies whenever they march out the old "bad guys killing civilians" thing?

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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If i was Bosch, I would have held off the initial uprising until i had operatives deep in the senate, and GTVA command was properly "subversed" then detonated a tactical nuke or somesuch......... :nod:
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline Freespace Freak

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Bosch did, though, just like Hitler, or the Japanese military dictatorship of WWII.
I know I should stay the hell away from it to keep the thread on track, but i've got to say it:

...and the Allies. Why do people always forget the Allies whenever they march out the old "bad guys killing civilians" thing?

Warfare during WWII is a lot different than warfare today.  Yes, the Allies bombed cities, and dropped two nuclear warheads, but they didn't round up civilians, rape them, and shoot them (or gas them) in cold blood.  I'm sorry if you're from Germany, Mefustae, but if there ever was any such thing as pure evil, then it was Hitler.  His regime, and his military were weapons of this evil.  The Allies dropped bombs from afar, and I'd say the British actively targeted civilian population centers during their night raids, but they didn't murder in cold blood.  Bad things happen in war, but what Hitler did with the Holocaust is inexcusable.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Yes, the Allies bombed cities, and dropped two nuclear warheads, but they didn't round up civilians, rape them, and shoot them (or gas them) in cold blood

Didn't? Or didn't have an order to?

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Yes, the Allies bombed cities, and dropped two nuclear warheads, but they didn't round up civilians, rape them, and shoot them (or gas them) in cold blood

Didn't? Or didn't have an order to?

You've just lost me.

 

Offline Prophet

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round up civilians, rape them, and shoot them (or gas them) in cold blood.
The krauts weren't the only one's who have done that. And there's lot more evil things than Nazi germany. You have any idea what happened during WWI? During Napoleons wars? During the time Russians and Swedes were fighting over Finland? Or what have people done during the various confligts on American continents, all the way to the vikings and aztecs.

Hitler was ambitious dictator with delusions of grandure. But he was no frigging satan. And ofcourse you can tell me to go ask about that from the people in the camps and gas chambers. I'm not denying that was horrible. I'm just brining some perspective.
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
I am not breaking radio silence just cos' you lot got spooked by a dead flying ****ing cow. -Sergeant Harry Wells/Dog Soldiers


Prophet is walking in the deep dark places of the earth...

 

Offline Blue Lion

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You've just lost me.

I hope you're not implying allied soldiers never killed or raped anyone.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Negative.  There are always murderers and rapists in any society, military included.  The difference is that the Nazi regime itself were murderers and rapists.  The Nazis ordered and carried out the cold-blooded execution of six million, that's million, Jews along with 6 million other innocents, so called undesirables.  The allies never did anything like that.  They dropped bombs and stuff, but something like the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking is beyond collateral damage.  That was pure, calculated malice.  I'm sorry if your German, but you have to live with the fact that Germany was ruled over by an evil regime.  Not that it was entirely the German people's fault.  Hitler manipulated the system to come to power, and used terror tactics to stay in control, but he was evil and all who gladly followed his orders were evil.

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Godwin's law in action here, eh?

Anyway. Stalin currently holds the record (I think) for amount of murders, voluntary and involuntary manslaughters. During years 1929–1939, different sources estimate about 15-20 million lifes; that is the victims of persecution and victims of famine counted together.

On the other hand, Mao might hold the record for manslaughter by gross negligence. Official sources indicate more than 15 million dead in China during years 1958-61, and other sources estimate the numbers to be between 20 and 43 millions... :nervous:

Hitler's holocaust victims total number is usually estimated to be about 9-11 million, though some sources claim it to be as high as 26 million people.


When the terrible acts of Hitler are compared to terrible actions of other "great leaders", you notice an interesting thing. Hitler lost his war. Stalin won. Mao won. Hitler became a monster, Stalin and Mao remained decorated leaders for decades to come. Only long after their deaths the actual atrocities of theirs were revealed. What makes Hitler's regime more of a special case was the fact that Stalin killed anyone who just might oppose him, and most people obeyed him out of fear; Much the same applies to Mao. Hitler, on the other hand, first gained popularity by giving rabid masses a common enemy, then gathered the most nuts of the nutcases as his personal protection and echelon, and onle THEN began killing anyone who might oppose him (ie. the SA troops), and meanwhile kept killing also the original victims of his power scheme - mainly jewish, but also roma, homosexuals, disabled people and other minorities that his pseudo-philosophy regarded "un-aryan". That's the main difference that causes Hitler to have become the archetype of an evil dictator instead od Stalin or Mao.

By the way, I'd like to remind that the Soviet Red Army was also an Allied army. They were not particularly light-handed to civilian population when they ravaged their way towards Berlin in the end of the war. I recommend reading Anthony Beevor's Berlin:The Downfall 1945. Excellent book IMO.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Warfare during WWII is a lot different than warfare today.
No need to talk down to me, I know what the notion of Total War implies.

I'm sorry if you're from Germany, Mefustae, but if there ever was any such thing as pure evil, then it was Hitler.
Why would you assume i'm German? Seriously now, I have to be a member of the losing side to be disgusted by the atrocities committed by the Allied forces? Or that I would be insulted by your naming Hitler as 'evil'?

Where did "evil" enter this arguement, anyway? Aside from the fact that Hitler was merely a man and no more evil than any of us, I don't really see how labelling people as "evil" is at all pertinent to this line of [off topic] arguement. The world isn't black and white, it's grey. The notion of 'good' & 'evil' is a myth, and I suggest you come to terms with that.

The Allies dropped bombs from afar, and I'd say the British actively targeted civilian population centers during their night raids, but they didn't murder in cold blood.  Bad things happen in war, but what Hitler did with the Holocaust is inexcusable.
What the hell are you talking about? Aside from the obvious factual errors in your logic regarding the bombing of civilian targets by Allied forces, you're making it sound like i'm actually trying to defend the holocaust! It's just plain insulting, it is.

Negative.  There are always murderers and rapists in any society, military included.
Well said.

The difference is that the Nazi regime itself were murderers and rapists.
They had their ulterior motives, but I wouldn't say that the entire regime was made up of "murderers and rapists".

The Nazis ordered and carried out the cold-blooded execution of six million, that's million, Jews along with 6 million other innocents, so called undesirables. The allies never did anything like that.
Of course they didn't, who exactly is saying the Allies are guilty of dedicated genocide?

They dropped bombs and stuff, but something like the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking is beyond collateral damage.
Nice to see you can just whitewash away one of the primary [western] Allied atrocities with "dropped bombs and stuff". Firebombing cities and immolating hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians is a war-crime, plain and simple. And you'll forgive me for balking at the notion of implying one warcrime is worse than another. I mean, total war is one thing, but even the American brass coordinating the firebombings of Japanese cities admitted what they were doing was a warcrime.

That was pure, calculated malice.  I'm sorry if your German, but you have to live with the fact that Germany was ruled over by an evil regime.
Why do you keep implying everyone is German?

Not that it was entirely the German people's fault.  Hitler manipulated the system to come to power, and used terror tactics to stay in control...
It depends on your use of the word "manipulated". Hitler came to power by entirely legal means. Granted, there was manipulation behind the scenes to put him into the position as Chancellor, but seizing power after the Reichstag fire under Article 42 [I think, been a good year since I studied this] was entirely legal and within the system.

...but he was evil and all who gladly followed his orders were evil.
Once again, I must point out that Hitler, while a madman to be sure, was no more "evil" than you or I. He was just a man. Furthemore, what do you mean by "those who glady followed his orders were evil"? Are you implying the entire German armed forces at the time were evil? Every one a filthy Nazi? Do you have any idea just how wrong that sounds?

Godwin's law in action here, eh?
I think Godwin's only occurs when the subject is brought up for utterly no reason. This thread was about the actions of a regime centred around racism and genocide, so it's only a logical step from there.

Anyway. Stalin currently holds the record (I think) for amount of murders, voluntary and involuntary manslaughters. During years 1929–1939, different sources estimate about 15-20 million lifes; that is the victims of persecution and victims of famine counted together.
Good point, but I think we're all aware of Soviet atrocities, no-one could possibly be under any allusions to the contrary.

By the way, I'd like to remind that the Soviet Red Army was also an Allied army. They were not particularly light-handed to civilian population when they ravaged their way towards Berlin in the end of the war. I recommend reading Anthony Beevor's Berlin:The Downfall 1945. Excellent book IMO.
Read that a few years back, really good book. Have you read his book on Stalingrad?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 10:04:33 pm by Mefustae »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Alas, no... and actually I'm still in the middle of Berlin, but I can already tell for sure that it IS an excellent piece of reading. It's incredible how fact text can be made interesting to read, even though the suspect is quite grim.

If only all school history books were like that... ;)


By the way, I almost brought forth the Allied bombings of civilian targets, not only in Japan but also in Dresden. Most civilian casualties from bombings in Europe can be counted as unavoidable collateral damage, but Dresden was IMO way off. They completely wiped out the whole old downtown of the city and destroyed more or less about third or even half of the city. And I don't think there was that much military hardware in the center of the town.

Although the Dresden bombing is - along one interpretation - not a "war crime" according to war laws of the day which, by the way were out-dated as they were introduced before the development of aerial warfare brought forth area bombings. However, it was definitely a terrible thing to do, and it can also be interpreted as an atrocity against civilian population, but it wasn't "technically" a war crime.  :rolleyes:

Firebombing of Japanese targets was even more of a crappy thing to do... they actually killed more people than the nuclear bombs of H and N combined.


However, war crimes are a matter quite separate from internal discrimination and persecution. Although both are crimes against humanity, there's a subtle but important difference between ordering 100 000 civilians, citizens of own country, to be executed and giving an order leading to death of hundred thousand civilians of other country.


To keep at least nominally on topic, the NTF definitely was guilty of war crimes (attacking civilian targets) and perhaps they did commit such atrocities as mass executions of fis... Vasudans in their systems.

But, to keep things balanced, the GTA (or rather, GTI) did also commit war crimes, including murdering allies and civilians in order to cover some things up, as is demonstrated in the Silent Threat campaign. Yes, I know it contains fan made missions but it was an official expansion of Conflict: Freespace, so it should IMO be considered as canon as such, since :v: obviously approved the things in it.

Also, the GTVI commits infiltration missions which are basically the same thing that SS troops did when they wore Allied uniforms, got close to the Allied force and then opened fire. Such thing is, technically speaking, a war crime, since by abandoning uniform or other recognizable insignia, a soldier turns into an illegal combatant, to use the term... basically, a criminal with armament and training:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Conduct of warfare

Among other issues, the laws of war address declaration of war, acceptance of surrender and the treatment of prisoners of war; the avoidance of atrocities; the prohibition on deliberately attacking civilians; and the prohibition of certain inhumane weapons. It is a violation of the laws of war to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other easily identifiable badge and the carrying of weapons openly. Impersonating soldiers of the other side by wearing the enemy's uniform and fighting in that uniform is forbidden, as is the taking of hostages.

Ever thought that what Snipes and Alpha 1 are doing in the NTF is technically a war crime?  :drevil:


So, war crimes are not uncommon in FS universe - or alternatively the BETAC is notably looser on definition of war crime than the UN Charter, Geneva conventions and Hague conventions (current international laws considering warfare amongst other things). I wouldn't count on it, though.

About other crimes against humanity (or... should we say, vasudanity?) we don't really have accurate information, but it certainly wouldn't surprize me to learn that at least the HoL and NTF have done such things, after all they do have real loonies such as Koth and the HoL kamikaze pilots amongst them.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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I get what you're saying about Mao and Stalin, and I agree.  To truthful, though, the only reason the US and Britain were allied with the them is because they happened to be fighting our enemy as well.  They were allies of the moment, but enemies in truth.  I think the firebombing was a crime, but to be honest, even if they focused only on military targets back then, many civilians would still be dead.  It's not like they had precision guided munitions in those days.  Then there's the atomic bomb.  That's controversial because there is the possibility that the military dictatorship would never have surrendered.  Of course, the Emperor and others wanted to surrender before the atom bomb was used, and they were executing plans to enact the surrender, but the possibility remains that if the atom bomb wasn't drop, the emperor and company may not have had the support to push the overthrow of the military oligarchy so that they could carry out the surrender.  It's kind of a difficult subject.   :rolleyes:

My only point is that there's a difference, in my opinion, in firebombing (so called terror warfare) and rounding up citizens, sending them to gas chambers, or mass executing them.  Sure, firebombing kills civilians, but it's kind of a distant affair.  Something like the Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking is personal.  However, you're right in that they're both bad.  You're point was that both sides are guilty of commiting atrocities, and you're right.  My point was that the Nazis were guilty of something greater, since what they did was not what I call just a war crime, but a crime against humanity because the people they killed they didn't kill in some sort of military operation against the Allies, but against citizens in their own country or in territories they occupied.

Edit:  I just want to add that I'm in full agreement with Herra's post.  He said it better than I could.  Now back to the topic!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 07:42:10 am by Freespace Freak »

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

  • HLP is my mistress
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    • My old squad sub-domain
Slightly off-topic but *shrug*  :D
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 
I get what you're saying about Mao and Stalin, and I agree.  To truthful, though, the only reason the US and Britain were allied with the them is because they happened to be fighting our enemy as well.  They were allies of the moment, but enemies in truth.  I think the firebombing was a crime, but to be honest, even if they focused only on military targets back then, many civilians would still be dead.  It's not like they had precision guided munitions in those days.  Then there's the atomic bomb.  That's controversial because there is the possibility that the military dictatorship would never have surrendered.  Of course, the Emperor and others wanted to surrender before the atom bomb was used, and they were executing plans to enact the surrender, but the possibility remains that if the atom bomb wasn't drop, the emperor and company may not have had the support to push the overthrow of the military oligarchy so that they could carry out the surrender.  It's kind of a difficult subject.   :rolleyes:

My only point is that there's a difference, in my opinion, in firebombing (so called terror warfare) and rounding up citizens, sending them to gas chambers, or mass executing them.  Sure, firebombing kills civilians, but it's kind of a distant affair.  Something like the Holocaust or the Rape of Nanking is personal.  However, you're right in that they're both bad.  You're point was that both sides are guilty of commiting atrocities, and you're right.  My point was that the Nazis were guilty of something greater, since what they did was not what I call just a war crime, but a crime against humanity because the people they killed they didn't kill in some sort of military operation against the Allies, but against citizens in their own country or in territories they occupied.

Edit:  I just want to add that I'm in full agreement with Herra's post.  He said it better than I could.  Now back to the topic!
You should read about the alternative to the Atomic Bombing of Japan...Operation Downfall, the amphibious invasion of Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

Could you imagine the civilian casualties then?
<On "Their Finest Hour">
The GTVA sure knows how to launch feint attacks. You have the Colossus with her engines shut off, her battle group (all three ships) who apparently had problems with their weapon reactors, and a motley crew of fighters. No wonder the Bastion's escorts got decimated.

 

Offline Mefustae

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And can you imagine the civilian casualties or threatening Japan into surrendering with a demonstration of the Atomic bomb, rather than an actual offensive utilisation? That's right, none!

Alas, no... and actually I'm still in the middle of Berlin, but I can already tell for sure that it IS an excellent piece of reading. It's incredible how fact text can be made interesting to read, even though the suspect is quite grim.

If only all school history books were like that... ;)
Up to the part where he describes the Soviet rear-guard actions in Berlin? As in, the journal entries of seveal young German women in Berlin at the time? ****ing scary stuff.

 
And can you imagine the civilian casualties or threatening Japan into surrendering with a demonstration of the Atomic bomb, rather than an actual offensive utilisation? That's right, none!
We did have a demonstration. We developed three bombs, we detonated one (Trinity) on July 16th, 1945 in New Mexico.

By detonating our remaining two warheads on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we ended the war months sooner than would otherwise have been the case, saving many lives that would have been lost on both sides if the planned invasion of Japan had taken place.
<On "Their Finest Hour">
The GTVA sure knows how to launch feint attacks. You have the Colossus with her engines shut off, her battle group (all three ships) who apparently had problems with their weapon reactors, and a motley crew of fighters. No wonder the Bastion's escorts got decimated.

 

Offline Mefustae

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We did have a demonstration. We developed three bombs, we detonated one (Trinity) on July 16th, 1945 in New Mexico.
Really? Well golly gee-whiz! Here I was thinking that they shipped the very first prototype off to the Air-force to be used without any testing whatsoever! :doubt:

I'm implying that they would have gotten the same demoralising effect by dropping the bomb on an unpopulated area, thereby demonstrating the horrific destructive power, without killing civilians [among other things] in the process and copping **** for the next 60 years

By detonating our remaining two warheads on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we ended the war months sooner than would otherwise have been the case, saving many lives that would have been lost on both sides if the planned invasion of Japan had taken place.
That's not an absolute. Recently uncovered information points to much higher will in the Japanese leadership to surrender that previously though, and while i'm horribly malinformed on the subject, I can recall that a respectable portion of the historian community consider the bombings to have been unnecessary.

 
We did have a demonstration. We developed three bombs, we detonated one (Trinity) on July 16th, 1945 in New Mexico.
Really? Well golly gee-whiz! Here I was thinking that they shipped the very first prototype off to the Air-force to be used without any testing whatsoever! :doubt:

I'm implying that they would have gotten the same demoralising effect by dropping the bomb on an unpopulated area, thereby demonstrating the horrific destructive power, without killing civilians [among other things] in the process and copping **** for the next 60 years

By detonating our remaining two warheads on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we ended the war months sooner than would otherwise have been the case, saving many lives that would have been lost on both sides if the planned invasion of Japan had taken place.
That's not an absolute. Recently uncovered information points to much higher will in the Japanese leadership to surrender that previously though, and while i'm horribly malinformed on the subject, I can recall that a respectable portion of the historian community consider the bombings to have been unnecessary.
Well, since you said that you were malinformed on the subject, allow me to guide you a bit. Sorry ahead of time if I start to get preachy, as history is one of my hobbies.

#1 - I will concede that the civilian leadership in Japan was cautiously and discreetly sending out diplomatic communiqués as far back as January 1945, following the Allied invasion of Luzon in the Philippines. However, Japanese military officials were unanimously opposed to any negotiations before the use of the atomic bomb.

#2 - While some members of the civilian leadership did use covert diplomatic channels to begin negotiation for peace, on their own they could not negotiate surrender or a cease-fire. Japan, as a Constitutional Monarchy, could only enter into a peace agreement with the unanimous support of the Japanese cabinet, and this cabinet was dominated by militarists from the Japanese Imperial Army and the Japanese Imperial Navy, all of whom were initially opposed to any peace deal. A political stalemate developed between the military and civilian leaders of Japan with the military increasingly determined to fight despite the costs and odds. Many continued to believe that Japan could negotiate more favorable terms of surrender by continuing to inflict high levels of casualties on opposing forces and end the war without an occupation of Japan or a change of government.

#3 – I would like to note the increased Japanese resistance, futile though it was in retrospect, as it became obvious that the result of the war could not be overturned by the Axis powers. The Battle of Okinawa showed this determination to fight on at all costs. More than 120,000 Japanese and 18,000 American troops were killed in the bloodiest battle of the Pacific theater, just 8 weeks before Japan's final surrender. In fact, more civilians died in the Battle of Okinawa than did in the initial blast of the atomic bombings. When the Soviet Union declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945, two days after the bombing of Hiroshima, the Japanese Imperial Army ordered its ill-supplied and weakened forces in Manchuria to fight to the last man. Major General Masakazu Amano, chief of the operations section at Japanese Imperial Headquarters, stated that he was absolutely convinced his defensive preparations, begun in early 1944, could repel any Allied invasion of the home islands with minimal losses.

#4 - After the realization that the destruction of Hiroshima was from a nuclear weapon, the civilian leadership gained more traction in its argument that Japan had to concede defeat and accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. Even after the destruction of Nagasaki, the emperor himself needed to intervene to end a deadlock in the cabinet, as military leaders still refused to support surrender. There was even an attempted military coup to prevent the surrender.

#5 - According to some Japanese historians, Japanese civilian leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, as were the military men in the war cabinet. (Because the cabinet functioned by consensus, even one holdout could prevent it from accepting the declaration.) Thus the peace faction seized on the bombing as a new argument to force surrender. Koichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest advisors, stated: "We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war." Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief Cabinet secretary in 1945, called the bombing "a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war." According to these historians and others, the pro-peace civilian leadership was able to use the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to convince the military that no amount of courage, skill and fearless combat could help Japan against the power of atomic weapons. Akio Morita, founder of Sony and a Japanese Naval officer during the war, also concludes that it was the atomic bomb and not conventional bombings from B-29s that convinced the Japanese military to agree to peace.

#6 – I would also like to point out that waiting for the Japanese to surrender was not a cost-free option. As a result of the war, noncombatants were dying throughout Asia at a rate of about 200,000 per month. Firebombing had killed well over 100,000 people in Japan since February of 1945, directly and indirectly. That intensive conventional bombing would have continued prior to an invasion. The submarine blockade and the United States Army Air Forces' mining operation had effectively cut off Japan's imports. A complementary operation against Japan's railways was about to begin, isolating the cities of southern Honshu from the food grown elsewhere in the Home Islands. This, combined with the delay in relief supplies from the Allies, could have resulted in a far greater death toll in Japan from famine and malnutrition than actually occurred in the attacks. It has been estimated by some that over 10 million could have starved to death. Meanwhile, in addition to the Soviet attacks, offensives were scheduled for September in southern China and Malaysia.

#7 - The Americans anticipated losing many soldiers in the planned invasion of Japan, although the actual number of expected fatalities and wounded is subject to some debate and depends on the persistence and reliability of Japanese resistance and whether the Americans would have invaded only Kyushu in November 1945 or if a follow up landing near Tokyo, projected for March of 1946, would have been needed. Years after the war, Secretary of State James Byrnes claimed that 500,000 American lives would have been lost. That number has since been repeated authoritatively, but in the summer of 1945, U.S. military planners projected 20,000–110,000 combat deaths from the initial November 1945 invasion, with about three to four times that number wounded. (Total U.S. combat deaths on all fronts in World War II in nearly four years of war were 292,000.) However, these estimates were done using intelligence that grossly underestimated Japanese strength being gathered for the battle of Kyushu in numbers of soldiers and kamikazes, by factors of at least three. Many military advisors held that a worst-case scenario could involve up to 1,000,000 American casualties.

#8 - The atomic bomb hastened the end of the Second World War in Asia liberating hundreds of thousands, including about 200,000 Dutch and 400,000 Indonesians from Japanese concentration camps. Moreover, Japanese troops had committed atrocities against millions of civilians, including the infamous Nanking Massacre, and the early end to the war prevented further bloodshed.

#9 – I would also like to point to an order given by the Japanese War Ministry on August 1, 1944. The order dealt with the disposal and execution of all Allied POWs, numbering over 100,000, if an invasion of the Japanese mainland took place. It is also likely that, considering Japan's previous treatment of POWs, were the Allies to wait out Japan and starve it, the Japanese would have killed all Allied POWs and Chinese prisoners.

#10 - In response to the argument that the large-scale killing of civilians was immoral and a war crime, I argue that the Japanese government waged total war, ordering many civilians (including women and children) to work in factories and military offices and to fight against any invading force. Father John A. Siemes, professor of modern philosophy at Tokyo's Catholic University, and an eyewitness to the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima wrote in The Avalon Project: The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki:
Quote
"We have discussed among ourselves the ethics of the use of the bomb. Some consider it in the same category as poison gas and were against its use on a civil population. Others were of the view that in total war, as carried on in Japan, there was no difference between civilians and soldiers, and that the bomb itself was an effective force tending to end the bloodshed, warning Japan to surrender and thus to avoid total destruction. It seems logical to me that he who supports total war in principle cannot complain of war against civilians."
#11 – I would like to emphasize that Hiroshima and Nagasaki did have strategic military significance. Hiroshima was the location of the Japanese 2nd Army headquarters, while Nagasaki was a major munitions manufacturing center.

#12 - Some historians have claimed that U.S. planners wanted to end the war quickly to minimize potential Soviet acquisition of Japanese-held territory.
<On "Their Finest Hour">
The GTVA sure knows how to launch feint attacks. You have the Colossus with her engines shut off, her battle group (all three ships) who apparently had problems with their weapon reactors, and a motley crew of fighters. No wonder the Bastion's escorts got decimated.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
I think one of the most important factors is; what leader, when given the weapon with the potential to quickly bring an end a brutal, costly and damaging war, can afford not to use it?

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
Well, i'm convinced. Good sir, I tip my hat to you.

Back OT, the... uh... what the hell is this thread about, again?