[Ford Prefect]

You find me a christian that isn't predjudiced against atheists, in america, and I will give you a freaking medal.  Even the so called "liberal, tolerant" christians are closet bigots against people not of their religion in my expirience - my own mother even!

I know plenty. I don't know what region of the country you hail from, but where I'm from, it's quite common for religion to remain a personal matter. Hell, I know atheists who attend the Congregational Church services in my hometown. You're viewing Christianity as some kind of monolithic interest group, and that's exactly what the religious right wants you to believe, but it's not true. Christianity is the largest religion in the world; does it really strike you as plausible that every one of them in an entire nation is trapped in this Manichean dogma that prevents them from accepting the limitations of personal views? Come on. I know you don't have the whole picture because I know the people who you claim don't exist. They're my neighbors, friends, and family. Just because our culture as a whole is overly saturated with religion doesn't mean you can decide what is going on in the mind of every Christian in the entire United States.

[aldo_14]

I know plenty, too.  In fact, I'm struggling to think of anyone - of any faith or non-faith - who is bigoted for any sort religious reasons.  Maybe a couple because of the Protestant-Catholic divide in central Scotland, but that's partially social and partially football more than it is down to actual faith.

[TrashMan]

If denouncing their totalitarianism ways is offensive then you're going to be offended quite often - every time someone stands up for democracy you're going to be defended.   Sure, some of them are not totalitarian - so they should know my statements of that nature don't apply to them.  You find me a christian that isn't predjudiced against atheists, in america, and I will give you a freaking medal.  Even the so called "liberal, tolerant" christians are closet bigots against people not of their religion in my expirience - my own mother even!


Denouncing their being deluded may be - but the truth sometimes hurts.   I don't give a **** if they're offended by the truth - that's their problem not mine.  Simple fact is: they fit the textbook definition of delusional.  They are believing in something without the slightest scrap of evidence, and some of what they believe goes AGAINST evidentially established fact.  Worse they let this delusion control decisions they make that affect other people.

No offense Kaz, but you're not what I'd call "pinnacle of tollerance", becoause you see, in this text right here you are describing chistians as morons.

Real tolernace is when you don't slander other people, not jsut tolerate their existance. Yes, you claim it's the truth and they deserve it, but again you are making vast generalizations.

And if we want to get philosophical, you say everyone has the right to belive waht he wants, including what he belives is the truth. In that context, if I belive that you a idiot, than I would be speaking the truth (mind you, this is just an example for siscussions sake)

to make hte long story short, from you're posting in these forums I got the feeling that you don't like christians much, or religious people, since oyu somehow consider them apparenly stupid.

This might not be the truth, but that's the impression I'm getting... and I really shouldn't be getting it according to you...

[brozozo]

I'm Catholic, and I hold no bigotry towards anyone.

[Nuke]

i live in ****ing alaska, i dont want to see the womens tits
we got some of the grosest women ive seen.

[Kazan]

WMC i'm not going to stand here and have you manipulate the definitions of the english language in an attempt to call me a bigot


-----

So how is your belief that your actions will promote the survival of the human species any more valid than their belief that there is a higher being, plane of existence, or other system at work that humans cannot understand?

because I can SHOW (quite easily) that religion is harmful
let's think
mmm... crusades... inquisition... half the wars in history.... religious terrorism (like abortion clinic bombings)... insertion of their goddamn bull**** into government aka theocracy.. GENITAL MUTILATION ... and a million other things!

You have, in this very post, accused others of being bigoted.

do you have a better word for a person who legislates their believes in violation of the rights of non-believers?

How is my accusation any more insulting than your own? And if it is not more insulting than your own accusations, why do you get offended when I do it, but seem to consider it completely acceptable for you to do it to others?

Your accusation is INCORRECT - that's how it's far more insulting.

Because when I say something it tends to be something I can back up with EVIDENCE ... let's see "Christian bigotry"... hmm
Anti-gay legislation? check
anti-atheist fervor? check
christianist lawmaking? check

seriously... it's OBVIOUS - it's staring your right in the face, just open your eyes!

For that matter, I doubt very much that your religious friends would very much appreciate being called a "closet bigot".

those friends, when I pointed out those positions to them to be constituting bigotry reevaulated their positions. 

Then there is a secular justification for laws against women going topless - public opinion.

[yoda]argumentum ad populum does not an argumentum constitute.[/yoda]

[Ford Prefect]

And if we want to get philosophical, you say everyone has the right to belive waht he wants, including what he belives is the truth. In that context, if I belive that you a idiot, than I would be speaking the truth (mind you, this is just an example for siscussions sake)

Well, no. You would be exercising your right, but the truth is independent of your will.

[Kazan]

Hell, I know atheists who attend the Congregational Church services in my hometown.

i bet you there AINO - Atheist In Name Only - more likely they're agnostics

You're viewing Christianity as some kind of monolithic interest group, and that's exactly what the religious right wants you to believe, but it's not true.

actually it is one big monolithic interest group from my position - i haven't met a non-bigoted christian in the last decade.  I haven't met a christian who is willing to stand up for my rights as a non-christian IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. 

You introduce me to a good, decent christian and then I'll believe they exist - my expirience shows me they don't.

Christianity is the largest religion in the world;

um... no it's not

does it really strike you as plausible that every one of them in an entire nation is trapped in this Manichean dogma that prevents them from accepting the limitations of personal views?

i never said i did - STOP MAKING PRESUMPTIONS!  They all share fundamental beliefs - and religion from the ground is an evil in my analysis - in my EXPIRIENCE.  Some of them are more dangerous than others - but you show me a christian who you think is a good decent person who will stand up for the rights of non-christians - and I will 9/10 show you a closet bigot. 

There is a reason that the MORE contact I have with christians the more I despise them!

I know you don't have the whole picture because I know the people who you claim don't exist. They're my neighbors, friends, and family.

i'd wager if I could prove you wrong within a day of asking them questions.  Christians I used to think were good decent people who stood up for the rights of non-christians turned out to be closet bigots. 

Just because our culture as a whole is overly saturated with religion doesn't mean you can decide what is going on in the mind of every Christian in the entire United States.

You keep operating under the assumption that I have to - and that somehow they have unique thought.  Guess what? religion is religion - it all relies on the same fundamental failure to use the brain properly - it is dangerous from the ground up

NEVER have I said that all christians are equally bad - some are far worse than others - I'm willing to bet there are some decent ones out there somewhere, and they would know my comments don't apply to them - but I haven't MET a single decent christian in years - all the ones that I was under the mistaken impression of them being decent human beings who stand up for the rights of non-christians turned out being closet bigots - INCLUDING MY OWN GODDAMN MOTHER


You SHOW ME a decent christian!  You show me a christian who will stand up for my rights!

[Kazan]

to make hte long story short, from you're posting in these forums I got the feeling that you don't like christians much, or religious people, since oyu somehow consider them apparenly stupid.

and you're ABSOLUTELY correct - why should I like a group of people who continuously suppress my rights?
why should I like a gruop of people who are responsible for the mutilation of my ****ing genitals?
why should I like a group of people who continuously start wars over their ****ing BASELESS beliefs?
why should I like a group of people as BLINDLY ARROGANT as the religious?

You assert that your god exist and operate your entire lives off that assertion - including making decisions that affect other people - AND YOU CANNOT PROVIDE ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION!

You're absolutely right - I don't like christians, I am EXTREMELY angry with them.


That DOESN'T keep me from being friends with them, that DOESN'T keep me from standing up for their rights, that DOESN'T keep me from wishing them well, that DOESN'T keep me from having fallen in love with a girl - who at the time I met her - was a christian (and has now become and atheist... that didn't take long after she and I started dating ).


My best man is one of the most religious people I know - **** he even voted for bush!

[Kazan]

Well, no. You would be exercising your right, but the truth is independent of your will.

that's one of those things that christians have a difficult time with in my expirience - realizing that simply believing something doesn't make it true.

[Dark Hunter]

You find me a christian that isn't predjudiced against atheists, in america, and I will give you a freaking medal.

*Raises hand*

[Kazan]

You find me a christian that isn't predjudiced against atheists, in america, and I will give you a freaking medal.

*Raises hand*

You think "in god we trust" should get off the money?
You think "under god" should back out of the pledge?
You think the government shouldn't fund organizations that descriminate based upon religion?
You think we shouldn't be passing laws that only have religious purposes? (abortion bans, gay marriage restrictions, etc)

[Dark Hunter]

I don't care whether or not "In god we trust" is on money, and I don't care about "under god" being in the pledge.

No, the government should not fund disciminatory organizations (of any kind). I haven't heard of any actually, so I'm a little surprised you mention them. But then, I don't pay attention to the government all that much. 

As for the things that you put under your etc list, one could argue that those aren't necessarily religion-based, but I know that arguing about that would be pointless, so I won't.
Those laws I don't really care about either way.

Now, if the government passed a law against a religion, then that'd be different.

[Bobboau]

how bout the boy scouts?

and Kaz define "closet bigot"

[Kazan]

I don't care whether or not "In god we trust" is on money, and I don't care about "under god" being in the pledge.

many christians say that then when an atheist complains about their presence they get all negative about the atheist.. so you see my issue there

No, the government should not fund disciminatory organizations (of any kind). I haven't heard of any actually, so I'm a little surprised you mention them. But then, I don't pay attention to the government all that much. 

Boy Scouts of America pops into my head right away (they descriminate against atheists as well as gays)

Now, if the government passed a law against a religion, then that'd be different.

yeah.. it'd be entirely as inappropriate as laws based soley on religion and i'd fight against it

[Kazan]

and Kaz define "closet bigot"

someone who acts all accepting and outgoing, but when it comes right down to it is hostile to the rights of people not of their group

[Bobboau]

give me an example.

[Ford Prefect]

Kazan, I'm as atheistic as they come; I don't confuse atheists and agnostics. Has it ever occurred to you that part of freeing yourself from religious thought is to stop viewing every action as a statement of principle? I've been to plenty of church services, especially during the Christmas season, and not once have I doubted my atheism. But you know what? I find them beautiful. They're beautiful because of the music. They're beautiful to me precisely because I don't believe a word of what's being said-- because to me there is something overwhelmingly moving about this absurd need that we have for something that, in my view, does not exist. It gives such a profoundly human feeling, because I see that regardless of the answers we come up with, we're all asking the same questions, we all have the same problems, and we're all very, very small.

So I'm tired of being diplomatic. Because, Kazan, when you draw a line in the sand between good and evil, with religion on one side and atheism on the other, when you declare people who want to appreciate beauty to be "atheists in name only", when you decide that someone's ontological views are indicative of mental deficiency, when you refuse to admit that your mode of thought has not provided you with the final answer to every question, you have made atheism a religion. And I want no part of that, because I believe that atheism gives me the freedom to view the world as a single entity, and not in categories that mean nothing beyond what their inventors have decided they mean.

[Kazan]

give me an example.

half the christians i know

a christian who acts like they are all accepting of other religions and nice to people of other religions, but then turns around and supports laws that are purely sectarian

or a christian who acts like they support religious freedom that scoffs at atheists who want "in god we trust"/"unde god" gone

[Kazan]

Kazan, I'm as atheistic as they come; I don't confuse atheists and agnostics. Has it ever occurred to you that part of freeing yourself from religious thought is to stop viewing every action as a statement of principle? I've been to plenty of church services, especially during the Christmas season, and not once have I doubted my atheism. But you know what? I find them beautiful. They're beautiful because of the music. They're beautiful to me precisely because I don't believe a word of what's being said-- because to me there is something overwhelmingly moving about this absurd need that we have for something that, in my view, does not exist. It gives such a profoundly human feeling, because I see that regardless of the answers we come up with, we're all asking the same questions, we all have the same problems, and we're all very, very small.

and for the very same reason's they're nothing but offensive to me - exercises in mass delusion and arrogance, and the absurd weakness of humans to not be able to grow up to adult thinking and shed their emotionally comforting fantasies in their childhoods.

So I'm tired of being diplomatic. Because, Kazan, when you draw a line in the sand between good and evil, with religion on one side and atheism on the other, when you declare people who want to appreciate beauty to be "atheists in name only", when you decide that someone's ontological views are indicative of mental deficiency, when you refuse to admit that your mode of thought has not provided you with the final answer to every question, you have made atheism a religion. And I want no part of that, because I believe that atheism gives me the freedom to view the world as a single entity, and not in categories that mean nothing beyond what their inventors have decided they mean.

It's difficult for me to imagine atheists who have not grown as angry with the arrogance of religion as I - but some people have patience greater than mine and have been exposed to less fundies. 

I have not made a religion out of atheism, my assertions against the religious are not based upon atheism - they're based upon the lack of evidence for their position combined with the evidence of the effects that their position has one the world