Author Topic: I demand unfettered access to ...  (Read 17747 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
BOOBIES!





I propose that we immediately turn this thread into "Hot girls # whatever the number is now".

All those in favor?

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
:yes:

 

Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
He also invited me to visit his site to debate.

no going to happen

We'll debate on neutral terroritory - i'm not going to where he can hide behind the ban hammer when I start calling him on his logical fallacies.

Wow, and here I thought private messages were private.

Feel free to link to the debate.  It's a publicly accessible blog.

I already told you.  I'm not interested in a forum pissing contest to determine who yelled in the loudest caps.

If you want to debate me, visit my site.  Forums are, and always have been, teh suck for "debates" of any kind. 

Use something suited to the format.  I'll even give you a user account to post *articles* with, if you're so concerned about being banned. Like I told you in the private message - where are these "I'm gonna get banned!" insecurities coming from?

Also, please leave private messages private, if it isn't too much trouble. 
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Offline BS403

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
finally :) back on topic :nod:
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Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts.
Homer: Explain how.
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services.
Homer: Woo-hoo!

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
strictly speaking.. no it doesn't preclude an aftelife... colloquially speaking... yes it does

I was making an extremely technical point of note there, my next line basically explained exactly what you say here.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
now here is the point were things get interesting.

let us assume that there is a group of people who practice a religion, let's call it 'Carpelianism', were to see another person's naked wrist is mortally sinful and they will be doomed to an eternity of filling out paperwork in the ethereal department of bureaucracy if they allow themselves to see other people's wrists.

now, would it not be a violation of there religious rights to force them to see your wrist?
we'll get to the practicality of this in a sec, assuming them seeing your wrist required you to go out of your way.

alright, practically speaking, such people would basically need to, cloister themselves away from the rest of te world, they would need to set up communities like the Amish, or the morman polygimist sects have.
but they are perfectly within there rights to do this, right? to make themselves a community were they can safely walk down the street without inadvertently damning themselves eternal forms and fileings. everyone who founds the city agrees to this way of life, and anyone can leave when ever they want.

but unfortunately for these people, the nearest town is full of asshole children who like to go through there town wrists abare. they do this intentionally, soly for the purpose of inflicting pain on these people, who they consider 'weird'.

this isn't right is it? those asshole kids are violating the Carpelian's rights of religion. they specifically separated themselves from everyone else so they wouldn't have to put up with this crap, so what are they supposed to do?
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Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Annorax

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...


do you have a better word for a person who legislates their believes in violation of the rights of non-believers?


I do.

FRIST

Bastard's bull**** reasons for banning internet gambling just cost me my $500/month side income.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Quote
I wish you well, but I refuse to waste time arguing with an egotist.

argumentum ad hominem

It's only ad hominem if he's not making a valid point. And I think I can get about 75% of the folks here in this thread, if not more, to agree that it's a valid point.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
and Kaz define "closet bigot"

someone who acts all accepting and outgoing, but when it comes right down to it is hostile to the rights of people not of their group


Congrats Kaz, you just perfectly described yourself :D
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Kazan, belief in nothing but yourself leads only to egotism.  That is the only logical conclusion of humanism/atheism.  I wish you well, but I refuse to waste time arguing with an egotist.

I'd content that statement to be rather insulting; can you back it up?

Perhaps I should elaborate from a position of raised Protestant, turned agnostic, turned aetheist.  Aetheism is not 'self worship'; aetheism is the belief that there is no need for a supernatural or supreme diety acting as invisible puppeteer.  Aetheism is the decision that belief systems like Christianity have no base in rationality (fair enough - faith based systems, after all) and, more relevantly, that they are constructs invented and used by particular groups of people as a method of asserting their particular set of moral convictions (God invented by man, in effect).

Aetheism, then, doesn't entail belief in oneself.  That'd be a rather odd concept, in fact; I am my God?  Very odd.  It entails a lack of belief in anything that would be worshipped and by extension being of the opinion that the workings and nature of the universe can be understood by, well, learning & investigation (theism doesn't bar rational investigation, of course, but it does limit it by setting unproveable preconceptions).

Now, I'll skip nimbly onto the subject of morality per se.  Religion (again, aetheistic perspective) sets morals as a method of codifying the society in which that religion was formed.  Sometimes these are common sense within evolved / societal group dynamics (like not stealing or killing other members of the group), sometimes reflection of formed bigotry or bias.  Said religious morals frequently also reflect now antiquated views of social, gender, etc groups, views which society mostly now knows 'better than' thanks to the ever increasing development of rational investigation and learning.

Anyways, in my book, there is a societal basis for why religions 'hide' nudity.  I would guess it is at least partially down to sexual competition and the resultant 'protective' urges of men; sexual competition is all about men competing for (to be picked by) a woman.  Once the man 'wins' into a monogamous (well, for the female - humans are naturally mildly polygamous, as any hunter-gatherer society shows - this is also why we have sexual dimorphism) relationship, I would imagine that the prohibitions on nudity (excluding where it's just down to common sense, i.e. bloody cold) emerged as a way of claiming pseudo-ownership of their partner.  In terms of 'not exposing the kids', I believe it's simply because children of that age don't have the rationing capacity to make sensible, safe decisions regarding sex and so a 'don't show, don't tell' method is adopted to stop them, well, shagging (and various other sexual activities).  However, I believe it's highly debatable whether that approach does any good - I suspect education is key, as children will invariably exposed in some way in anything beyond a repressive, highly censored society, and it only takes one voice in the playground.

However, I would like to note that 'filth and obscenity' is a personal definition, and can be applied to (for example) loud street preachers.  Swearing, for example, can be completely innofensive (and is) to many people but extremely offensive to people; legislation on these types of things needs to be minimal, not maximal, as society acts as a regulation upon behaviour anyways. It's worth noting, in this area, that aethism (or more appropriately, freedom of speech and secular respect) does not 'force' anything upon people beyond the right to choose.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...

Quote
So how is your belief that your actions will promote the survival of the human species any more valid than their belief that there is a higher being, plane of existence, or other system at work that humans cannot understand?

because I can SHOW (quite easily) that religion is harmful
let's think
mmm... crusades... inquisition... half the wars in history.... religious terrorism (like abortion clinic bombings)... insertion of their goddamn bull**** into government aka theocracy.. GENITAL MUTILATION ... and a million other things!

You're serious here? You're not joking here?
Becoause this proves nothing. It only proves that there allways have been and always will be stupid people. Nothing more or nothing less.

Of course, you firmly belive that this is 100% accurate, undenyable proof. Which is not even in the slightest...


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Quote
How is my accusation any more insulting than your own? And if it is not more insulting than your own accusations, why do you get offended when I do it, but seem to consider it completely acceptable for you to do it to others?

Your accusation is INCORRECT - that's how it's far more insulting.

Because when I say something it tends to be something I can back up with EVIDENCE ... let's see "Christian bigotry"... hmm
Anti-gay legislation? check
anti-atheist fervor? check
christianist lawmaking? check

seriously... it's OBVIOUS - it's staring your right in the face, just open your eyes!

Well, I can back up with evidence that a lot of atheists are biggots.. let'ss see:
Abortion legislation? check
anti-religious fervor? check
atheistic lawmaking? check


Uuu... OPEN YOUR EYES MAN!!!!


Quote
why should I like a gruop of people who are responsible for the mutilation of my ****ing genitals?
why should I like a group of people who continuously start wars over their ****ing BASELESS beliefs?
why should I like a group of people as BLINDLY ARROGANT as the religious?

You assert that your god exist and operate your entire lives off that assertion - including making decisions that affect other people - AND YOU CANNOT PROVIDE ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION!

You're absolutely right - I don't like christians, I am EXTREMELY angry with them.

Let's summarize:

1. By your own words you're EXTREEMY ANGRY at christians (and religious people in general). Thus your objectivity in this case very questionalbe.

2. Religion doesn't require the type of evidence you obviously think it does. That however, doesn't make religious people stupid, arrogant biggots.
You yourself would like to make decisions that affect other people, based on your own prejudice and thoughts, so that would make you equally bad.

3. Your hatered for religion stems from your genitals...aparently.

Quote
that's one of those things that christians have a difficult time with in my expirience - realizing that simply believing something doesn't make it true.

The same applies for all people. You beliving religion being evil doesn't make it true....


Quote
You think "in god we trust" should get off the money?
You think "under god" should back out of the pledge?

Re-printing all the money would be a real waste jsut to satisfy someones whim.

Religious people like the reference of God on money and in the pledge.
Atheists don't want it and would like it removed.

So by removing it, wouldn't you end up favoring one group over another and forcing their views on the other group? Isn't that equally bad as what you accuse "religious people" of doing?

And b.t.w. - separation of church and State has nothing to do with the mention of a God on a peace of paper...
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Kazan, belief in nothing but yourself leads only to egotism.  That is the only logical conclusion of humanism/atheism.  I wish you well, but I refuse to waste time arguing with an egotist.

I'd content that statement to be rather insulting; can you back it up?

A really large number of Atheists I met do consider themselves better than belivers..

I have atheist friends who are quite nice chaps, but you can't escape the feeling that they think religious people are somehow further down the evolutionary chain. Like you're some kind of retard and they are enlightened.
Luckily I choose my friends carefully, so these two never insulted me or looked at from on high, nor have they ever called me a "closet biggot".

Of course, there are also belivers that think they are better than other people. So you don't have to be religious to act like a elitis f***, as much as Kaz would like it to be that way.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Well, I can back up with evidence that a lot of atheists are biggots.. let'ss see:
Abortion legislation? check
anti-religious fervor? check
atheistic lawmaking? check


Quick reply to this specific point; you're talking bollocks.  I shall expand;

Firstly, abortion legislation is not anti-religious.  It is not aetheistic, either.  In fact, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with medicine and personal freedom.

Secondly, what anti-religious fervour?  Where?  Don't mistake secular laws - the protection of all beliefs - as being anti-religious.  The only thing anti-religious about them is that they are designed to ensure one religion, one belief, is not given hegemony over all the people within a country.

Thirdly, secular lawmaking, as I said above, has nothing to do with aetheism.  For both 2 and 3 - and probably 1 in fact - you're actually suggesting that your definition an unbigoted state would be a religious theocracy based around your particular opinions.

Kazan, belief in nothing but yourself leads only to egotism.  That is the only logical conclusion of humanism/atheism.  I wish you well, but I refuse to waste time arguing with an egotist.

I'd content that statement to be rather insulting; can you back it up?

A really large number of Atheists I met do consider themselves better than belivers..

I have atheist friends who are quite nice chaps, but you can't escape the feeling that they think religious people are somehow further down the evolutionary chain. Like you're some kind of retard and they are enlightened.
Luckily I choose my friends carefully, so these two never insulted me or looked at from on high, nor have they ever called me a "closet biggot".

Of course, there are also belivers that think they are better than other people. So you don't have to be religious to act like a elitis f***, as much as Kaz would like it to be that way.

So the logical conclusion of aetheism is not egotism - my point exactly.  Egotism is part of human nature, not created by choice of belief.

 

Offline RazorsKiss

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...

Kazan, belief in nothing but yourself leads only to egotism.  That is the only logical conclusion of humanism/atheism.  I wish you well, but I refuse to waste time arguing with an egotist.

I'd content that statement to be rather insulting; can you back it up?

So the logical conclusion of aetheism is not egotism - my point exactly.  Egotism is part of human nature, not created by choice of belief.

Atheism, since it does not believe that there is any higher order of thinking being than man, is merely another form of humanism, but with a negative (a-theism) instead of positive title.

It is a very, very, small step from humanism to egotism.   Kazan made it quite readily - and I could give you an entire column of links the length of this page of atheists I would classify in the same category.  It's not uncommon, nor is it rare, to find a belligerent, egotistical, and even obnoxious atheist.

It comes with the territory.  Who can tell you you are wrong to do so?   Noone.  Which is the point of atheism, isn't it?  Only humans matter, because only humans exist.  So, only human opinions matter as to behavior.  Opinions change, thus, morals can change - and are thus relative.

So, in essence, there's nothing anyone can tell an obnoxious atheist, especially once who has convinced himself that a Christian is his enemy, that he is wrong to feel that way.  By his lights, and he may even be completely correct in assuming so, seeing as he denies God's existence, and we are, by definition, followers of that God who has said that He will judge the earth and all it's people.

He just doesn't know it yet.  Regardless - I may have been sweeping - I freely admit.  But, it was for emphasis.  Keep in mind, however, that "I'm offended" claims don't hold much water with me.  If drawing atttention to the inherent logical conclusion of atheism is offensive, so be it.  Kazan called me a Christianist bigot.  Did I even bother to mention that's offensive? :D

Kazan - he's not worth bothering to argue with, because all he does is spout the Infidels.org party line.
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Offline BlackDove

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
It comes with the territory.  Who can tell you you are wrong to do so?   Noone.  Which is the point of atheism, isn't it?  Only humans matter, because only humans exist.  So, only human opinions matter as to behavior.  Opinions change, thus, morals can change - and are thus relative.

Oh how fortunate we are to have RazorsKiss moral tutelage to point us down the shining path, to show us the way...

Give me a ****ing break.

Relative morals? Why don't you go back in time a bit and ask your buddies the Crusaders what their morals were when they were trying to take over the map, or the Inquisition that drove every wealthy Jew away from the Spain's side of the continent, just so they'd take over the estates in the name of "God".

Your entire belief system is nothing more than a big business conceived to take money from idiots that need to feel in control of their own destiny. I'll take an obnoxious atheist to burn with in hell any day then submit my mind even for a second to what can only be described as lunacy on any level of involvment.

 

Offline IceFire

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Come to Canada...its already legal to bear your breasts.  At least in Ontario.  Funny thing is...once the law was enacted you saw maybe one or two people and then that was it.  But still...its freedom.  You see them a little bit more on the beach but typically not.
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Offline Kazan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
those asshole kids are violating the Carpelian's rights of religion.

no, they're not - the right to religious freedom doesn't extend to not seeing people not of their religion - all rights end where another person's rights begin
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Offline Kazan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Religious people like the reference of God on money and in the pledge.

yeah - they like FORCING themselves on others

Atheists don't want it and would like it removed.

imagine that - atheists don't like having their rights violated

So by removing it, wouldn't you end up favoring one group over another and forcing their views on the other group?

No, we're enforcing the constitution - it's favoring NO GROUP - if it were to be replaced with "god is bull****" that would be favoring atheists, and equally unconstitutional. 


Isn't that equally bad as what you accuse "religious people" of doing?

no, because you have a faulty understanding of the definition of "favoring"

Quote
And b.t.w. - separation of church and State has nothing to do with the mention of a God on a peace of paper...

wrong - Lemon v Kurtzman
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Offline Kazan

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Hey razorkiss - i'm still waiting for one IOTA of evidence to support your assertion that god exists

until you can provide that, you have no grounds upon which to make any other assertion
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: I demand unfettered access to ...
Atheism, since it does not believe that there is any higher order of thinking being than man, is merely another form of humanism, but with a negative (a-theism) instead of positive title.

It is a very, very, small step from humanism to egotism.   Kazan made it quite readily - and I could give you an entire column of links the length of this page of atheists I would classify in the same category.  It's not uncommon, nor is it rare, to find a belligerent, egotistical, and even obnoxious atheist.

It is a very, very small step from being human to being egotistic. 

It comes with the territory.  Who can tell you you are wrong to do so?   Noone.  Which is the point of atheism, isn't it?  Only humans matter, because only humans exist.  So, only human opinions matter as to behavior.  Opinions change, thus, morals can change - and are thus relative.

So, in essence, there's nothing anyone can tell an obnoxious atheist, especially once who has convinced himself that a Christian is his enemy, that he is wrong to feel that way.  By his lights, and he may even be completely correct in assuming so, seeing as he denies God's existence, and we are, by definition, followers of that God who has said that He will judge the earth and all it's people.

He just doesn't know it yet.  Regardless - I may have been sweeping - I freely admit.  But, it was for emphasis.  Keep in mind, however, that "I'm offended" claims don't hold much water with me.  If drawing atttention to the inherent logical conclusion of atheism is offensive, so be it.  Kazan called me a Christianist bigot.  Did I even bother to mention that's offensive? :D

Kazan - he's not worth bothering to argue with, because all he does is spout the Infidels.org party line.

I have frequently argued with KAzan because I find his view rather intolerant and, yes, insulting.  However, to make such a blase set of assumptions about the content and nature of aetheistic belief, and then use that to create this rather incorrect judgement that aetheism always entails egotism, is simply wrong and I find insulting.  Do you not notice that presumption of 'inherent logical conclusion' is itself a highly egotistic one?  That in making this you are making a number of huge assumptions and presenting them as unbridled truth, as if the nature of the presenter means we will accept them?

Now, I'll note a particular mistake you make; that aetheisms' point is 'only humans matter'.  That's simply wrong.  Aetheism states (or not so much states, as it's not a codificated religion but an opinion) that there is no need for a supernatural theology to explain the world.  That is all.  It does not say 'do what you want' or 'morals are relative'; these 2 are factors that are defined by group dynamics, and we have seen their codification within religion change just as much as any secular opinions.  Hell, just look at (for example) the likes of the Catholic concept of Limbo as a very recent example of the religion changing in respect to group dynamics (or, for another term, social changes).

Remember, that the secular human/historical view of 'Gods law' is that this is created by man to enforce the social and cultural order of the time.  You can personally believe these laws/morals are divinely created, but from a human - secular, species - they are no more special or worthy of protection than any other culturally agreed law.

In fact, there's a converse argument that aetheism, by encouraging understanding of the natural world and the notion that human life is a singular event, encourages preservation; life is short, so make it worthwhile for yourself and others (for example).  There's no aetheistic counterpart to the hard-core Christian, for example, who believes if the world goes to pot then God will step in and fix it.  Now, I'm not going to step in and say people who are aetheist, or Christian, etc are inherently better, though - because every person is human, and when you ascribe faults to a belief you make a mistake; they should be ascribed to being human.

I'll note one final thing; 'obnoxious atheist'.  Obnoxious.  That is, an obnoxious person who happens to be aetheist.  Just like when you get self-aggrandising, bigoted, obnoxious Christians.  That's humanity for you - differing.

EDIT; one observation - I note that you're not aetheist.  This, combined with the quoted, leads me to form the conclusion that you simply don't understand what aetheism is, or what it entails in terms of psychology and worldview.  Am I an egotist?  I've never been told so.  Am I immoral?  Nope.  You conclude I must be, because I don't share your belief.  Isn't it rather egotistic to presume you know that when you don't understand what I believe - or more accurately what my opinion is?