Author Topic: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.  (Read 15326 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
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As terrorists and unlawful combatants, the Guantanamo detainees have no stated right under the Geneva Conventions to civilian trials. There is nothing in international law against us putting them through military tribunals or just shooting any more terrorists we find on the spot and not taking prisoners at all.

Since you haven't convicted one of them yet, despite your comments about Milosevich, how do you know they are terrorists and therefore not subject to the convention? It hasn't even been confirmed that the people in Guantanamo were even fighting, let alone terrorists, most of them were handed over to the Americans for rewards, and as the British found out in Afghanistan that's not that way to get good results. (The UK offered to pay farmers to burn their opium crop, the next year twice as many farmers grewe opium in the hope of getting free money).

So, basically, you already have them down as tried, guilty and executed when the trials haven't even begun? And you accuse Europe of prejudice?

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
Since you haven't convicted one of them yet, despite your comments about Milosevich, how do you know they are terrorists and therefore not subject to the convention? It hasn't even been confirmed that the people in Guantanamo were even fighting, let alone terrorists, most of them were handed over to the Americans for rewards, and as the British found out in Afghanistan that's not that way to get good results. (The UK offered to pay farmers to burn their opium crop, the next year twice as many farmers grewe opium in the hope of getting free money).

So, basically, you already have them down as tried, guilty and executed when the trials haven't even begun? And you accuse Europe of prejudice?

Wouldn't the US forces already know what the people they're offering rewards for have done? I think it would be "$50,000 reward for <insert name of a prominent terrorist leader>", not "turn in a terrorist and get $50,000". Furthermore, I didn't say we shouldn't give them any sort of trials. I think military tribunals are the optimal method of trial and punishment for these terrorists.

Besides, as it stands, American criminals awaiting trial would probably kill to swap their jail out for the conditions of Guantanamo Bay. We're that good to them.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
Problem was, they weren't looking for Terrorists by name, they were simply saying 'Bring us Terrorists and we'll give you $20 each for them', like the Witch Trials, human nature was enough to do the rest.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
Double post...

http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?pageNum_rsListArticles=5&totalRows_rsListArticles=193&type=Interviews

Yes, the site is biased, I'll admit, but take a read through the stories of some of the people who have been released without charge.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
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As terrorists and unlawful combatants, the Guantanamo detainees have no stated right under the Geneva Conventions to civilian trials. There is nothing in international law against us putting them through military tribunals or just shooting any more terrorists we find on the spot and not taking prisoners at all.

Yes there is.  It's enshrined in any number of international accords.  For one thing, summary execution violates both the right to have POW status determined by a fair court (Geneva convention), and the detention without trial and with presumption of guilt violates the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (article 14).  It also violates Article 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (equality before the law). 

There is no accord which permits the execution of any person both prior to (as we are) a fair trial.

Since you haven't convicted one of them yet, despite your comments about Milosevich, how do you know they are terrorists and therefore not subject to the convention? It hasn't even been confirmed that the people in Guantanamo were even fighting, let alone terrorists, most of them were handed over to the Americans for rewards, and as the British found out in Afghanistan that's not that way to get good results. (The UK offered to pay farmers to burn their opium crop, the next year twice as many farmers grewe opium in the hope of getting free money).

So, basically, you already have them down as tried, guilty and executed when the trials haven't even begun? And you accuse Europe of prejudice?

Wouldn't the US forces already know what the people they're offering rewards for have done? I think it would be "$50,000 reward for <insert name of a prominent terrorist leader>", not "turn in a terrorist and get $50,000". Furthermore, I didn't say we shouldn't give them any sort of trials. I think military tribunals are the optimal method of trial and punishment for these terrorists.

It wasn't.  They were paying bounties on Taliban or Al-Queda fighters - essentially anyone who was handed over by the Northern alliance.  The criteria for detention were possesion of a weapon, khaki clothes, and a swatch.

Military tribunals fail to satisfy the conditions of a fair court; with lower standards of evidence, no guarenteed right to appeal, not held publicly but secretly, amongst others.  How happy would you be to see a Us soldier charged with murder, go on trial in a secret Iraqi or Afghani court?

And I can't help but wonder.... why are the Taliban irregulars but not the Northern Alliance regulars deemed unlwaful combatants?

EDIT; here's an example; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Hagi_Fiz - detained for 8 months, a senile, toothless 72 year old charged with holding an Al-Queda card which turned out to be a bus pass.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
Does it depend who holds most territory, or the poulation majority?
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Offline vyper

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
Regarding Deroy Murdock - show me evidence from someone other than a gay, black, conservative with something to prove and we'll talk.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
to have POW status determined by a fair court (Geneva convention)

The problem with that in this case is that they are, perforce, totally ineligible for POW status under any circumstances, as they were not fighting for a recognized government. A technicality perhaps, but the Taliban was not extended formal diplomatic recognition by very many people. I don't think even Pakistan did so.

Since you haven't convicted one of
It wasn't.  They were paying bounties on Taliban or Al-Queda fighters - essentially anyone who was handed over by the Northern alliance.  The criteria for detention were possesion of a weapon, khaki clothes, and a swatch.

This has always amused me, because if what you say is true, then why are there not vastly greater numbers of detainees? You could apply that description to probably more than 50% of the total population of Afghanistan. If it was really so lucrative, really so commonplace, then why are there not 10,000 people still sitting in cellblocks in Gitmo? Either something has been vastly oversimplified in that description or there was a filter along the line that kept the huge numbers of people answering to that description out. Either way, it doesn't work.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
I noticed that Woolie completely failed to justify why it is fair that Saddam should be put on trial in Iraq but terrorists captured in Afghanistan shouldn't be.

So I'll restate it every time he posts until he does :p
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
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Quote
from: Flipside on November 09, 2006, 04:35:24 PM
Since you haven't convicted one of
It wasn't.  They were paying bounties on Taliban or Al-Queda fighters - essentially anyone who was handed over by the Northern alliance.  The criteria for detention were possesion of a weapon, khaki clothes, and a swatch.

This has always amused me, because if what you say is true, then why are there not vastly greater numbers of detainees? You could apply that description to probably more than 50% of the total population of Afghanistan. If it was really so lucrative, really so commonplace, then why are there not 10,000 people still sitting in cellblocks in Gitmo? Either something has been vastly oversimplified in that description or there was a filter along the line that kept the huge numbers of people answering to that description out. Either way, it doesn't work.

Yo seem to have mixed quoters there ;) Seriously though, I think the problem is, like the Witch-finders, the first people to go are those who look a bit 'odd' or live by themselves, or looked at someone a bit funny, basically, I suspect a lot of 'settling old scores' took place among the Iraqis when this offer was made.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Short drop and a sudden stop for Saddam Hussein.
The problem with that in this case is that they are, perforce, totally ineligible for POW status under any circumstances, as they were not fighting for a recognized government. A technicality perhaps, but the Taliban was not extended formal diplomatic recognition by very many people. I don't think even Pakistan did so.

It's not relevant; the Geneva convention states;
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Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
(http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)

Otherwise, any country could refuse to recognise the legitimacy of whoever they were fighting and thus justify war crimes. The Taliban forces cover all 3 of those; any 'illegal combatant' status would have to be determined by b,c, and d (2), which would require a fair tribunal to determine.  A Taliban soldier, even if wearing ****ty khakis, would probably satisfy the b,c,d clauses unless he was a suicide bomber or somesuch.  (b is curious, i'll admit - how do troops have a 'fixed recognisable sign from a distance' in an ordinary army?)

This has always amused me, because if what you say is true, then why are there not vastly greater numbers of detainees? You could apply that description to probably more than 50% of the total population of Afghanistan. If it was really so lucrative, really so commonplace, then why are there not 10,000 people still sitting in cellblocks in Gitmo? Either something has been vastly oversimplified in that description or there was a filter along the line that kept the huge numbers of people answering to that description out. Either way, it doesn't work.

Because there isn't room for 10,000 people in Guantanamo.....plus, there are the people handed over to the US by the Northern Alliance for bounty.

There are an estimated 1,500+ held in US camps in Afghanistan in places such as Khost, Asadabad, Jalalabad, Bagram and Kandahar.

This is not including black sites, of course, such as Diego Garcia, or in Thailand or Poland (amongst others).  Or rendition to Saudi Arabia, Syria (stopped because of the rather obvious bad PR-ness of that), Jordan, Pakistan, Egypt etc.

And of course ignoring the 14,500 held in Iraq, who for the sake of argument I presume are Iraqis (and AFAIK are uncharged).

Apparently the US has detained in total over 80,000 people since 2001, but I'm not sure of a source for that figure.