[RazorsKiss]

As some of you may know, I'm working to convert Tachyon: The Fringe into the FS2 engine.

Where I keep running into a wall, however, is *how* to do things.   Many times, you'll find documentation on *what* to do - but the detail stops at, for instance "insert modified tables into a .vp, using vp_insertprogramhere_".

I love karajorma's FAQ - but the detail in many of the FAQ's on that site are oriented toward capships, and tell you more about *what* to do, instead of *how* to do it, in my humble estimation.

I'll kinda go over what I've tried to do, thus far.  Some of the failings have been due to other programs, but I'm sort of at a wall.  I'm also quite stuck on some aspects of using 3dsmax, because what I'm doing (using models that weren't originally created for FS2) doesn't quite go through any of the accepted FAQ stages.

1. Converted all the Tach models into .3ds, because I (finally) got max working.

2. Chopped all of the thruster tails off of the models that had them.

3. Oriented them so they'll be facing right when imported, scaled them to a "normal" size for FS2 (between 10 and 25 meters - mini-fighter to largest bomber - there are also some "mega size" fighters - which should really be gunships... I'll deal with them later )

4. Rigged several, using the FAQ for the POF exporter, on the wiki, added a shield identical to the one that is shown on the example model that comes with it.

Now, I have several models that show up in modelview, sans textures, with gunpoints, thrusters, etc.  I'll put all of the texture bitmaps into the maps folder, correct?

Now... tables.  Lots of posts say DO NOT edit the .tbl files - but edit .tbm's, instead - correct?  (But not *how* - at least none that I've found :/)  So, if you have, say, Shivan's "total installer of doom", with several campaigns, etc - do these .tbm's just go into a separate .vp file? Plus, which .tbl's are they supposed to modify?  Furthermore, can .vp's be JUST the modified files, and nothing else, or do you need to add in a whole new set of the originals for it to modify, in that new .vp? 

For instance, I tried to install nukemod - I put the "nukemod" folder into the main fs2 folder, where the other campaigns/mods are - but when I try to select it, no dice.

I couldn't find anything about .tbm's except for the single entry on the wiki, and not much on .vp creation for FS2_Open, or whether/how much it differs from the original .vp's.  Like TBP, I'd rather have something *relatively* stand-alone that doesn't really use much, if anything, from the original FS2, by the time we're done - but for testing purposes, I *need* to know *how* to insert .tbm's, so that it references the .pof's, and *how* the .pof's reference their texture files - especially how to set up FS2_Open to access them. 

I'm stuck at the point where I either have way *too* many posts to sort through, about a specific subject (spanning 3 years of updates and revisions that have, in many cases, rendered the original advice obsolete), or barely any at all, because it's just assumed that you know how/where to package a .vp, and what it's supposed to contain, and where it is to be placed. Often times, basic explanations are given along with very terse comments that just assume you know how to do the next step already. 

I'm stumped.  Maybe I should just make a single post, and go through all my difficulties one by one, and edit it as I solve them (or I'm helped to solve them), and find new ones to solve.   I'm not complaing.  I'm just a bit frustrated by the fact that there's either a dearth, or a plethora of info - it's either hard to find because there's so little, or because there's so much, over so many versions.

Any suggestions as to relevant threads?  I'll volunteer to update the wiki for those references, even.

I just need to find info

[Turey]

2. Chopped all of the thruster tails off of the models that had them.

why?

Now... tables.  Lots of posts say DO NOT edit the .tbl files - but edit .tbm's, instead - correct?  (But not *how* - at least none that I've found :/)  So, if you have, say, Shivan's "total installer of doom", with several campaigns, etc - do these .tbm's just go into a separate .vp file? Plus, which .tbl's are they supposed to modify?  Furthermore, can .vp's be JUST the modified files, and nothing else, or do you need to add in a whole new set of the originals for it to modify, in that new .vp?

I couldn't find anything about .tbm's except for the single entry on the wiki, and not much on .vp creation for FS2_Open, or whether/how much it differs from the original .vp's.  Like TBP, I'd rather have something *relatively* stand-alone that doesn't really use much, if anything, from the original FS2, by the time we're done - but for testing purposes, I *need* to know *how* to insert .tbm's, so that it references the .pof's, and *how* the .pof's reference their texture files - especially how to set up FS2_Open to access them. 

Alright, lets start with .VPs. .VPs are basically just a "copy" of the data folder, in that the files in the .VP get put into a maps folder, a tables folder, a models folder, etc., within the VP. When you actually create a .VP file, you should make a folder called "data", and put folders inside it with the same names as the folders that are in the data folder in the freespace2 directory. Then, place all your files within the appropriate folders. You can delete any folders that are empty. Then, when you make a .VP, just select the data folder you made and it should work. This is what it looks like with VPMage:



As to how FreeSpace 2 handles .VPs, a good way to picture how FreeSpace works with mods and .VPs is to imagine that FreeSpace, upon starting the game, creates a data folder, with the same structure as the data folder in the freespace2 directory. It then adds these files, in order, to the correct places in the folder. For each step, if there is a duplicate file from a previous step, it is overwritten.

The order is:
files in VPs in the main freespace2 folder
files in freespace2\data
files in VPs in the current mod folder
files in the data folder of the current mod folder

So you don't need to include any files in your VP that are in the retail VPs.


Now, on to .tbms. Let's start with an example. Say that, for some absolutely vital reason, you need to be able to fly a Herc 2 at 500m/s, because it is a crucial part of your storyline.   You don't want the Herc 2's in the retail campaign moving at 500m/s, so you would make the following .tbm file to use in your mod:

Code: [Select]

#Ship Classes
$Name: GTF Hercules Mark II
 +nocreate
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 500.0
#End

then you would name this file "hercshaulingass-shp.tbm" (because you're modifying ships.tbl, the name of the .tbm follows the pattern "(Whatever you want)-shp.tbm")and stick it in freespace2\modFolder\data\tables

Now, when FreeSpace Open loads files in your mod folder, it sees that you have a .tbm. Since you have put the +nocreate line in there, all that happens is that, in the entry for the herc 2, the line:
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 55.0
gets temporarily replaced with:
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 500.0

Got it?

If you don't have the +nocreate line in there, it takes everything in the .tbm and temporarily sticks it at the end of the corresponding .tbl file.

Everything else about .tbms works exactly the same as .tbls.

Now, as two the third part of your question, in the entry for every ship is a line that says:
$POF file: ICF_01.pof
or something like that. You just put the name of your model in there, and it uses it. Textures are referenced within the .pof, which can be changed with both PCS and ModelView.

Any questions?

[RazorsKiss]

why?

Because they were, even for a '00 game, butt-ugly. 

Alright, lets start with .VPs. .VPs are basically just a "copy" of the data folder, in that the files in the .VP get put into a maps folder, a tables folder, a models folder, etc., within the VP. When you actually create a .VP file, you should make a folder called "data", and put folders inside it with the same names as the folders that are in the data folder in the freespace2 directory. Then, place all your files within the appropriate folders. You can delete any folders that are empty. Then, when you make a .VP, just select the data folder you made and it should work.

With you so far, and that makes sense!  There may be hope for me yet.

This is what it looks like with VPMage:
<snipped>

Paint is still the coolest ever.  Thank you, by the way, no facetiousness intended, for drawing me a picture.  I didn't get that part, either.  My momma always told me I was dense, and I'm beginning to understand why!   

As to how FreeSpace 2 handles .VPs, a good way to picture how FreeSpace works with mods and .VPs is to imagine that FreeSpace, upon starting the game, creates a data folder, with the same structure as the data folder in the freespace2 directory. It then adds these files, in order, to the correct places in the folder. For each step, if there is a duplicate file from a previous step, it is overwritten.

The order is:
files in VPs in the main freespace2 folder
files in freespace2\data
files in VPs in the current mod folder
files in the data folder of the current mod folder

So you don't need to include any files in your VP that are in the retail VPs.

This may be where we start to lose hope in me...

Ok, so to add a single ship, for my first test, the only thing(s) I would add would be a modified ships.tbl?, with only the addition (or ONLY the new ship...?) of the single ship's data I want to test, and my new .pof?

Now, on to .tbms. Let's start with an example. Say that, for some absolutely vital reason, you need to be able to fly a Herc 2 at 500m/s, because it is a crucial part of your storyline.   You don't want the Herc 2's in the retail campaign moving at 500m/s, so you would make the following .tbm file to use in your mod:

Code: [Select]

#Ship Classes
$Name: GTF Hercules Mark II
 +nocreate
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 500.0
#End


So, you *only* use a .tbm if you want to change that already *exists*?   I don't want any of the FS2 ships to end up in the mod, when all is said and done.  So, hypothetically, if I wanted to make a *variant* of an already existing ship, I would use a .tbm - but I'd use a regular table for new ships?

Because, actually, for very important storyline purposes... like.. that these aren't from the FS2 universe, the speeds, weapons, and everything will be completely different.  That mean I need to write a completely new ships.tbl file, and not try to mod the existing, right?
 

then you would name this file "hercshaulingass-shp.tbm" (because you're modifying ships.tbl, the name of the .tbm follows the pattern "(Whatever you want)-shp.tbm")and stick it in freespace2\modFolder\data\tables

Now, when FreeSpace Open loads files in your mod folder, it sees that you have a .tbm. Since you have put the +nocreate line in there, all that happens is that, in the entry for the herc 2, the line:
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 55.0
gets temporarily replaced with:
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 500.0

Got it?

If you don't have the +nocreate line in there, it takes everything in the .tbm and temporarily sticks it at the end of the corresponding .tbl file.

Everything else about .tbms works exactly the same as .tbls.

Now, as to the third part of your question, in the entry for every ship is a line that says:
$POF file: ICF_01.pof
or something like that. You just put the name of your model in there, and it uses it. Textures are referenced within the .pof, which can be changed with both PCS and ModelView.

Any questions?

Just one (for this part) - the textures, that the model is referencing - where is it referencing them from, by default?  And, is that reference location, specifically, editable in modelview, or is the "maps" folder where you reference textures from/to?

I'll probably have more dumb questions later on.  However, I want to thank you, very much, for your help.  This, right here, is the major reason I wanted to use this engine.  You guys are the most helpful mod community I have *ever* seen.

[dr22]

Hey there Razorkiss; I must admit that I to have had problems with figuring out how to do things from some of the info at wiki. But I have been a bit intimidated to say anything or to ask for more detail as to how to.  I'm embarssed to say that as of yet I still have not been able to load a mod to play in fs2. One day I'll learn. Keep going though. Have agreat day. :-)

[Turey]

Because they were, even for a '00 game, butt-ugly.

I'll give you that.

This may be where we start to lose hope in me...

Ok, so to add a single ship, for my first test, the only thing(s) I would add would be a modified ships.tbl?, with only the addition (or ONLY the new ship...?) of the single ship's data I want to test, and my new .pof?

Correct. You only need a .tbl (or.tbm) that has the data for your ship, plus your .pof and your textures.

So, you *only* use a .tbm if you want to change that already *exists*?   I don't want any of the FS2 ships to end up in the mod, when all is said and done.  So, hypothetically, if I wanted to make a *variant* of an already existing ship, I would use a .tbm - but I'd use a regular table for new ships?

Because, actually, for very important storyline purposes... like.. that these aren't from the FS2 universe, the speeds, weapons, and everything will be completely different.  That mean I need to write a completely new ships.tbl file, and not try to mod the existing, right?

.tbms can be used for both new and existing ships. existing ships have the +nocreate line, new ships do not. That's the only difference.

While technically you could just use a .tbl, since you don't want ANY of the retail data. However, (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) a .tbm is still a better idea, as it allows people to use your files AND retail data in their own missions.

Just one (for this part) - the textures, that the model is referencing - where is it referencing them from, by default?  And, is that reference location, specifically, editable in modelview, or is the "maps" folder where you reference textures from/to?

I'll probably have more dumb questions later on.  However, I want to thank you, very much, for your help.  This, right here, is the major reason I wanted to use this engine.  You guys are the most helpful mod community I have *ever* seen.

textures are referenced by their filename (w/o extension), no path is needed. They can be in any VP or any data\maps folder that is used by FreeSpace 2/Open. (see my previous post for those locations).


PCS:


ModelView:

[Nuke]

For instance, I tried to install nukemod - I put the "nukemod" folder into the main fs2 folder, where the other campaigns/mods are - but when I try to select it, no dice.

thats most likely because nukemod has very few missions, , only 1, called scannin' crates, which has to be loaded through the single missions section of the mission simulator. the rule of thum is to create a new pilot for each mod, you can clone an existing pilot if you want to keey your controls. nukemod should work if you put the nukemod folder in the freespace 2 folder. your directory structure should be freespace2\nukemod\data\...and so on, selecting the nukemod folder in the launcher. if you dont see anything in the tech room, just use ctrl+shift+s and it should show everything. another thing, if you still have problems loading a mod that includes a campaign you need to select that campaign in freespace, as far as i know its not automatic.

other than that it may be possible that it simply no longer works with the current build, i try to update it whenever a major change cripples it. it also did not include a mod.ini file, which is nessicary if you want to load data from media vps.
 
anyway for your mod one thing to consider is that modelview cant show non-pcx textures (why?). pcx is the worst format for the scp, it uses the same amount of texture memory as a 24 bit dxt1 dds (you loose more detail in 8 bit than you do under the compression).

i wouldnt advise using vp files while youre developing the mod. if its a major release then go ahead and pack it. i dont pack my releases because the files compress better for a smaller download (i really havent tested this so correct me if im wrong), and to keep the mod easily tweakable for people designing missions, or for people who want to use something in nukemod in their own mod. untill nukemod reaches campaign status i dont think il pack it. vps are only optional, but a good option for releases, as you save the people playing a few clusters of drive space.

you probibly want tbls. you will want to keep some entries (at least one of each type of ship or weapon) to use as templates. it helps to clean them up, tab everything out uniformly remove comments once you got the hang of what everything does. just change the values for your ship, and copy+paste them as needed. you may want to use modular tables on some stuff, like weapon_exp.tbl/m, if you want to keep freespace's explosions. when you start doing stuff like custom spiecies, things get complicated as you have to make changes in other tables as well. you need to edit sounds.tbl, asteroids.tbl, icons.tbl, and species_defs.tbl to get that to work right.

[Colonol Dekker]

Each mod to its own folder, Thats the way the way to go

[Nuke]

just be sure the mod folder has a data folder in it.
from the fs2 folder, you should have to open 3 folders before you get to a model or a  texture

[karajorma]

Hey there Razorkiss; I must admit that I to have had problems with figuring out how to do things from some of the info at wiki. But I have been a bit intimidated to say anything or to ask for more detail as to how to.  I'm embarssed to say that as of yet I still have not been able to load a mod to play in fs2. One day I'll learn. Keep going though. Have agreat day. :-)

Make a new thread elsewhere and we'll talk you through it.


As for the original questions Nuke has pretty much brought up the points I was thinking I'd need to mention

VP files are for distribution of your mod once you're finished. For now simply make a Fringespace\Data folder and put everything in subfolders of that (models in Fringespace\Data\Models, Textures in Fringespace\Data\Maps etc). Doing so allows you much easier access to your files so that you can tweak things that aren't working. Once you have something ready to be sent out, then you should worry about putting it in a VP file.

I also agree with Nuke that because you're looking at something that is much closer to a total conversion rather than a mod you should use tbl files rather than .tbm. As you say yourself you don't want FS2 ships in your final product and the only way to do that is to include table files (so that the basic FS2 ones aren't used at all).