[Charismatic]

I say we dont need techs from other countries, we should just force Americans to learn. Keep americans in america.

[aldo_14]

How many H1Bs do you know?

ATM I have no idea. I work with a lot of foreigners but only one in my group and I don't know his status. It's not exactly the kind of question that you simply ask a nodding acquaintance with an accent, since it carries some baggage.  But over the years I've worked with quite a few. There's always exceptions, of course, but often, to keep expenses down, they'll  live in what I would think of as a barracks - maybe six or seven or more sharing a house. If you get friendly, they might tell you about how they're able to send huge portions of their money home and that after a year or two they'll be able to go home and live like kings, the American dollar being able to buy so much more in their countries. When it was a small percentage of the industry, it was interesting to see what people would do to make their way in the world. And I've got to give them credit - spending a year or two in a foreign country without friends or family isn't what I'd want to do to secure my future.  As individuals, the only problem I've got with them is that they'll undercut my salary by a large percentage.  But taken in their hundreds of thousands, and thanks to Bush and Company, American IT is going the way of American manufacturing: offshore. 

Well, I know someone in an H1B type situation, and they're manifestly (and explicitly) taken advantage of rather than any desire to 'undercut' Good Ole Americans, because they don't have the recourse to being fired - they just get chucked out the country.  Bear in mind companies can use the threat of the sack and subsequent extradition to force people to stay on low wages once hired, and indeed do so; what would I do, say, if I was working under an H1B and never promoted in 5 years, and unable to take recource because I'd been informally told to do so would get me the sack?

 I also know that some people are simply better, particularly a guy from (now) my work who spent several years in Boxborough, and get in by dint of ability; these are the people you want to welcome into your country.  And at the end of the day, there's always going to be a cost of living that's constant for any resident - US born or not - and surely you can't hold it against migrants for wanting to be competitive?

The thing is, I've seen management budgetings for large software projects; Bangalore is approx a quarter the cost of US workers (and UK).  The threat to IT is not from people coming to the US (or UK...etc), but those going outside to their home country.  And even then, the majority of budget is still put on UK/US workers....

I say we dont need techs from other countries, we should just force Americans to learn. Keep americans in america.

I'm inclined to agree, sometimes....

Albeit if history has shown anything, it's that you can't force people to learn.  You can present them to their face with the plainest of facts and they reject it; it's even harder to force them into a career.

[Geezer]

Well, I know someone in an H1B type situation, and they're manifestly (and explicitly) taken advantage of rather than any desire to 'undercut' Good Ole Americans, because they don't have the recourse to being fired - they just get chucked out the country.  Bear in mind companies can use the threat of the sack and subsequent extradition to force people to stay on low wages once hired, and indeed do so; what would I do, say, if I was working under an H1B and never promoted in 5 years, and unable to take recource because I'd been informally told to do so would get me the sack?

 I also know that some people are simply better, particularly a guy from (now) my work who spent several years in Boxborough, and get in by dint of ability; these are the people you want to welcome into your country.  And at the end of the day, there's always going to be a cost of living that's constant for any resident - US born or not - and surely you can't hold it against migrants for wanting to be competitive?

The thing is, I've seen management budgetings for large software projects; Bangalore is approx a quarter the cost of US workers (and UK).  The threat to IT is not from people coming to the US (or UK...etc), but those going outside to their home country.  And even then, the majority of budget is still put on UK/US workers....

Do you think that American employers don't know that there are no jobs out there? American IT workers are also treated like crap - because they also have very little recourse. Sure, you don't have to worry about being deported but the only job you might actually find could easily mean having to relocate your family. The guy who sits next to me lives in Colorado - which is something like 2300 miles from here. He went out there with the hope of good things but they didn't happen. So he still works here. He works from home when he can but he's also expected to show his face for a week or two every month. If he could find a decent job out there, he would. Another guy recently left but had to move to North Carolina (about 500 miles away, I think) to find equivalent work.

H1Bs are temporary workers by definition. And, like all temporary workers, they are "hired to be fired". I know that life, I've been an independent computer consultant since 1979 - which makes me a temporary worker, too. Temps rarely get raises (it's called re-negotiating your contract) and promotions go to the full timers - the people the company expects will be around as long as they need them to be. Your 5-year H1B has 1 year left before he has to leave. Would you promote him over a native?  The H1B is going to leave this country, taking his experience with him. He's going to go home and use his accumulated knowledge to help build his country's IT community in direct competition with America. Futhermore, since he was willing to work for less to start with, the job opening he leaves behind will go to someone else willing to work cheaply - which adds to the downward trend in US IT salaries.   

I realize that I'm sounding rather jingo-istic but I'm witnessing the destruction of another American industry by greedy, short-term-thinking, golden-parachute-wearing, government-encouraged bastids and I don't like it one bit. And H1Bs are part of the problem.   

[aldo_14]

The H1B is leaving the country because of immigration restriction, though, not immigration laxitude.  What makes you think H1B employees want to go home?

[Geezer]

What makes you think they don't? Let's not generalize from a few examples. The H1B program is designed as a way for big business to make bigger profits from skilled temporary workers. There's no 'heart' in the program. Individuals who apply for H1B status are bound to run the gamut from people who want to use it to get a green card and eventual citizenship to those who want it as a short term way of making 'great' money. The few H1Bs that I've gotten close enough to talk about it with don't want American citizenship, maybe your friend does.   

[aldo_14]

What makes you think they don't? Let's not generalize from a few examples. The H1B program is designed as a way for big business to make bigger profits from skilled temporary workers. There's no 'heart' in the program. Individuals who apply for H1B status are bound to run the gamut from people who want to use it to get a green card and eventual citizenship to those who want it as a short term way of making 'great' money. The few H1Bs that I've gotten close enough to talk about it with don't want American citizenship, maybe your friend does.   

Isn't that equally generalization?  Albeit, how inclined would you be to seek citizenship of a country that takes advantage of your immigration status to bleed you dry?

Albeit, I find it interesting to note the total number of H1B visas issued next year is estimated at around 100,000.  For a country of 300 million.  That's, of course, ignoring that any european (or indeed any Canadian, South Korean, Japanese or otherwise 'first tier' country)on an H1B  wouldn't go to the US for the joys of a piss poor salary and years of government harassment, even if we assume those from 'lower tier' places would.

What do you want?  An H1B system that encourages people to live, work, and otherwise build their lives in the US, or one that out and out rejects them (which the current H1B is closest to)?  Me, I'd want the former - I certainly do for my country. 

In any case, I think it's rather churlish to castigate people from other countries because they are more competitive... not to mention that I'd bet any money to further restrict H1Bs would just result in jobs being transferred to places like (for software) Bangalore.

[Geezer]

Albeit, I find it interesting to note the total number of H1B visas issued next year is estimated at around 100,000.  For a country of 300 million. 

IIRC 110,000 but that's neither here nor there. It's 110,000 skilled technical workers being invited in to fill an imaginary need. Thousands of American tech workers lose their jobs because these H1Bs are available. The ones who win are the companies who can increase their profits by lowering their IT budgets. If the H1Bs are being badly treated, so are the American tech workers.

   
What do you want?  An H1B system that encourages people to live, work, and otherwise build their lives in the US, or one that out and out rejects them (which the current H1B is closest to)?  Me, I'd want the former - I certainly do for my country. 

I'm not going to get what I want, my government has embraced the world economy. Bush has come right out and said that they'll be "a time of adjustment" or other words to that effect. They really don't give a rat's ass about the destruction of middle class. But let me repeat: the H1B system was not set up to be a path for immigration. It was set up to make money for the big corporations. It is for temporary tech workers.
 

 
In any case, I think it's rather churlish to castigate people from other countries because they are more competitive... not to mention that I'd bet any money to further restrict H1Bs would just result in jobs being transferred to places like (for software) Bangalore.

You know, no matter what your job is, there someone in the world who is perfectly willing and able to do it better and for less money.  My government is going out and seeking these people and sitting them down next to me. Still, I can't remember ever mistreating or even being rude to a foreigner - at least no more than I am to my countrymen. As far as outsourcing to Bangalore - if the job is going to be held by a series of H1Bs, then it is outsourced - in all but name.   

[Goober5000]

I say we dont need techs from other countries, we should just force Americans to learn. Keep americans in america.

Keep them in a cage?  Lock them up and throw away the key?