Author Topic: You Know Its Time To Leave When...  (Read 2911 times)

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Offline redmenace

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You Know Its Time To Leave When...
...Kids are throwing rocks at moving US Military vehicles.  :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCrjTC5FM1o
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Offline Gank

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Like they way they're complaining about not being able to shoot them...

http://www.glumbert.com/media/iraqiwater

Why do US soldiers sound like they're 15?

 

Offline achtung

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Why do US soldiers sound like they're 15?

Because most of them aren't much older than that.
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Offline redmenace

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Thats funny and sad at the same time.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Are the trucks plated enough to hold back rocks thrown by kids?

Good plan guys, "engage" kids throwing rocks at you. That'll calm everyone down.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
I find it ironic that soldiers are complaining about this when I was watching a video the other day of a contractor who was killed by insurgents because he took a wrong turn. The guy behind him who was filming only barely survived. If I were an American soldier in Iraq, I must admit, I'd be glad it has got to the stage of throwing rocks, very preferably to RPGs.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
They get rocks thrown at their LAVs when they're on the highway here, even shot at occasionally, because people are stupid and curious as to how "armored" they are. It's business as usual for the Marines.
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Offline redmenace

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Here is an idea, throw rocks back at them.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 
 

Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Yeah, our lot are no better, and if anything their average age is higher, which makes it even worse.

Though I will point out that they were having rocks thrown at them without being encased in an armoured car, if one of those rocks hit me, I think I'd be somewhat narked too, regardless of the age of the person who threw it. Though smacking them with the butt of the gun is overkill.

 

Offline Gank

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Doesnt exactly do wonders for your long term prospects in the region either. I'm sure they'll get over it and learn to love ye though, just like us Irish have...

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
It's the British Army, not the English Army :p And Ireland's situation has always been about far far more than 'The English', a lot of it was based around where to put the communion table, for example.

I doubt there are any long term prospects in the region to be honest, at least as far as the army is concerned. And I'm equally sure that an Iraqi soldier would react in precisely the same way if he was hit by rock, it's not really a 'race' thing you know, it's a 'having a heavy object thrown at you' thing.

That doesn't make it acceptable, soldiers should show more self control, but it's more about human nature than anything else, and you'll note that bullets were not fired. I'm wondering what that sound was in the video that sounded like a gunshot though, and whether it originated from the British side or from the crowd.

 

Offline Gank

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
The British army doesnt get its orders from Edinburgh or Cardiff. As for the communion table, that whole dispute was started by the king of england, so bad example. Converting to protestantism (church of England) here was always more about loyalty to the crown or keeping your land than religious dogma.

Definitely sounded like a gunshot and by the complete lack of concern shown by the squaddies I doubt it was fired at them. As for the Iraqi soldier, I'm sure people would be equally outraged at the sight of them beating kids in Trafalgar Square  ;)

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Depends on whether or not he was wearing a hoodie at the time. If he was there are few Brits who might join in. :p
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Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Actually, the whole communion thing was between the European Protestant Church (Which was engaged in a continent wide war with the Catholics), and the Catholics, the CoE was merely a form of Protestant church made by Henry VIII to try and claw money back that was vanishing to the Pope (The whole divorce thing was more an excuse than a reason).

There was a lot of propoganda on both sides, and the average Joes were the ones caught in between. What it all boiled down to was money, not belief. It was effectively the 16th century version of 'Those damn financial immigrant minorities coming here, stealing our jobs and practicing their wierd religions, it shouldn't be allowed', since the major influx of Protestant belief into Ireland was the immigration of British settlers, rather than conversion. Most people couldn't have cared less if it hadn't been for the Church on both sides egging them on. Very similar to todays situation in a great number of ways.

And whilst what you may say about the Iraqi soldier in Trafalgar square is indeed true, I've seen Middle Eastern policemen dragging white kids away to a Police car in an armlock for less, I've seen white Policemen pinning non-whites against the wall and not felt it was the least bit racist. Why? Because they bloody deserved it. It wasn't about the fact of where they were from, it was about the way they behaved ;)

Oh, and the British Army gets it's orders from just about everywhere depending on which Batallion it is. The Scottish Regiments do, in fact get their orders from Scotland, and the Ministry of Defence is only based in London, that doesn't mean that everyone who works there or gives orders is English.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 12:19:03 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Gank

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Actually most Irish protestants bar the scots prebyterians up north are descendants of people who converted during the time of the penal laws, the english settlers you mention mostly fled after military support for their colonies was withdrawn. And it was more a case of subjugation than immigration, the settlements and the penal laws both being introduced as a method for strengthening the crowns control of the country, Ireland having played host to a pretender to Henry VIII's crown. Nor was it really a power struggle between the holy see and church of england, the papacy has never really contested Englands claim to Ireland except during Jacobite times and even then it was the case of supporting one foreigners rule over another. And it bears little resemblence to todays situation, the plantations in Ireland were military affairs which cleared large swathes of land of their former occupants and imported a few english or scots to run them from fortified settlements. Present day immigration isnt done by force of arms.

Oh, and the British Army gets it's orders from just about everywhere depending on which Batallion it is. The Scottish Regiments do, in fact get their orders from Scotland, and the Ministry of Defence is only based in London, that doesn't mean that everyone who works there or gives orders is English.

I dont recall saying they were english, but seeing as you brought it up these guys are 1st battalion light infantry, which is based in Paderborn, Germany. Does that mean they get their orders from Berlin? Didnt think so. They were formerly known as the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, which would make them english. Irrelevant really, the army is a tool of the government regardless of where its battalion hqs are. Battalion HQs do not draw up their own orders, they get them from the MOD, which in turn gets them from no. 10. Which seems to get its orders from the Whitehouse. Yeah technically they're British soldiers, but I think you'll find the majority of your countrymen would like it another way:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6185652.stm
The UK though is really the descendant of the kingdom of england, and the other members of the union have not always been willing participants. Which is why most people here would attribute prior conflicts to the english, regardless of where the guy with the gun in his hands was from.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
It seems like everything balances out: We don't give them food, they throw rocks at us, we tempt them with food, the shoot at us, we shoot at them, they car bomb us.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 03:44:24 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Quote
Actually most Irish protestants bar the scots prebyterians up north are descendants of people who converted during the time of the penal laws, the english settlers you mention mostly fled after military support for their colonies was withdrawn. And it was more a case of subjugation than immigration, the settlements and the penal laws both being introduced as a method for strengthening the crowns control of the country, Ireland having played host to a pretender to Henry VIII's crown. Nor was it really a power struggle between the holy see and church of england, the papacy has never really contested Englands claim to Ireland except during Jacobite times and even then it was the case of supporting one foreigners rule over another. And it bears little resemblence to todays situation, the plantations in Ireland were military affairs which cleared large swathes of land of their former occupants and imported a few english or scots to run them from fortified settlements. Present day immigration isnt done by force of arms.

Once again, you refer to the land-owners, not the land-workers. Yes, it was done differently, but the massive percentage of retribution wasn't taken against the people who actually commited the deeds but against peasant workers who were unfortunate enough to be in Ireland at the time. It's easy to assume that the mentality of peasants working for their landlords would be the same as the landlords themselves, just as it's easy to assume that the opinion of most Muslims would be the same as the most outspoken of their leaders. The similarities are more than you think. 

The 1641 massacres were mostly commited against those totally innocent of anything other than working for people that oppressed the Irish, rather than being those who oppressed them, same with Oliver Cromwells retirbution afterwards. As always with these things, it's the grunts who take the punishment.

The Pope couldn't care less about the sovereignty of Ireland, this is true, but he most certainly cared about the advance of Protestantism in Europe, Ironically enough, Louis XIV was as obsessed with absolute power of the monarch as any English monarch, indeed, he 'created' absolutism and was almost as much at loggerheads with the Pope over the Kings right to be the centre of the Church and its related funds as Henry VIII was. This is why I find Orangemen mildly amusing.

As for the growth of Protestantism, I'll how to bow to your greater knowledge there, since I really don't have the time to research.

Quote
I dont recall saying they were english, but seeing as you brought it up these guys are 1st battalion light infantry, which is based in Paderborn, Germany. Does that mean they get their orders from Berlin? Didnt think so. They were formerly known as the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, which would make them english. Irrelevant really, the army is a tool of the government regardless of where its battalion hqs are. Battalion HQs do not draw up their own orders, they get them from the MOD, which in turn gets them from no. 10. Which seems to get its orders from the Whitehouse. Yeah technically they're British soldiers, but I think you'll find the majority of your countrymen would like it another way:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6185652.stm
The UK though is really the descendant of the kingdom of england, and the other members of the union have not always been willing participants.

It's a very nice news piece, but then, lets look at things from another point of view, for example, did you know that Arthur Balfour, one time Prime-Minister and author of the Balfour Accords was born in Scotland? I don't deny, and never would deny Scotland the right to Independence if they want it, but, just as the Duke of Wellington was born as the son of a Nobleman in Dublin, an awful lot of stuff that is blamed on England, or to be more specific, on London were, in reality, performed by members of the United Kingdom.

Yes, the Union has never really been 100% peaceful, there are very few Unions that are, but there's also a hell of a lot of Propaganda going on, it's easy to look at the worst and apply it to all of us.

Quote
Which is why most people here would attribute prior conflicts to the english, regardless of where the guy with the gun in his hands was from.

This, in itself, says it all, I think.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 04:19:14 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Gank

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Once again, you refer to the land-owners, not the land-workers. Yes, it was done differently, but the massive percentage of retribution wasn't taken against the people who actually commited the deeds but against peasant workers who were unfortunate enough to be in Ireland at the time. It's easy to assume that the mentality of peasants working for their landlords would be the same as the landlords themselves, just as it's easy to assume that the opinion of most Muslims would be the same as the most outspoken of their leaders. The similarities are more than you think. 

The 1641 massacres were mostly commited against those totally innocent of anything other than working for people that oppressed the Irish, rather than being those who oppressed them, same with Oliver Cromwells retirbution afterwards. As always with these things, it's the grunts who take the punishment.

Nobody put a gun to these guys heads and said go to Ireland you know, all of them went willingly to live on land taken from the Irish by the English crown, more often than not bloodily. Bit of a cheek to portray them as poor peasants who didnt know any better, they came to profit at the expense of others, and while I dont condone their massacre its hard to garner much sympathy for them. Just because these guys didnt have radio or tv doesnt mean they didnt know what was going on 50 miles away, especially when these plantations took place over decades. I dont really see the analogy with muslims here, you might want to explain that a bit better. Cant really think of any muslim leaders who are colonising anyone at the mo, maybe you're thinking of somebody else?

Look, you brought up this whole england-british thing, far as I'm concerned I couldnt really care if you consider yourself either. I dont know what you think my last quote says but if you look at it in context its pretty straightforward. Lemme give you an example of what I meant, during the 1588 rising scottish gallowglass mercenaries fought for both sides, at the time Scotland was a seperate kingdom to england. Are we supposed to blame the scottish kingdom for this or the english whose pay they were in? If you look at the times scotland was a seperate entity their meddling in the affairs of the Irish was limited to an an invasion by one of the bruces who came to fight the english rulers here way back in the 1300s. If the scots didnt bother us when left to their own devices who are we supposed to think is responsible when you're all united under one flag. Yeah sure the acts weere all performed by people from different places, but the head of the beast has always been in the same spot. You might have been little England at times, Great Britain at others, but the orders always came from London and its for that reason the english get the blame, regardless of whether the man giving the orders was Henry VIII, James I or William of Orange.

- Not that we hold a grudge against the average guy on the street, we just wouldnt trust your government. Ever.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 05:42:07 pm by Gank »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: You Know Its Time To Leave When...
Heh, we don't trust our government either, so at least we can agree on that ;)