Author Topic: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese  (Read 15216 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Cause Tom's build is basically proof that the multi community don't particularly care for the SCP so why should we care about them?
Hmm... I thought it was more like the "stable branch" before we had one.
Or would you seriously recommend anyone but the SCP/other FSO project members to use FSO HEAD for multi?

Tom's build is basically the source as it was put out by Volition themselves with a few additions including FS2NetD. As far as I know the FS2NetD code is the only addition that is from the SCP team.

As for using HEAD builds my position on multi is largely the same as it is for everything else. You shouldn't be using HEAD unless you're developing a mod which needs it or are willing (and able) to help out with bug reporting. Bear in mind that there are likely to be a lot of changes to multi between now and 3.7 which will mean some effort will be required to stay up to date with latest developments. That said we'll be adding some cool stuff along the way. :)
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
if thats true, how come it never crashed until you changed up 3.6.9s multiplayer setup?
3.6.9's multiplayer setup has a whole bunch of bugs fixed.  Tom's build does not.  Tom's build is trying to do stuff it was never designed to do.

Anyway, this whole thing will become moot when PXO support is restored and you can use the retail build again.

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I think you have your facts backwards goober.
Gee, I'm sorry, you're right.  You know the source code much better than I do. :wtf:

 

Offline castor

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
The whole point in using TB was that it didn't (in addition to fs2net bugs) add many new problems to those :v: delivered (which ppl already knew how to avoid).
But this whole argument is a pretty 'artificial', now we got 3.6.9. Everything is just fine :)

 
Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
I hang almost every time I play multiplayer, I don't use Tom's build.

I haven't played with forwarded ports yet, I'll try that today, but taylor indicated it was a code problem (he didn't mention ports) that will be fixed later.

Does anyone know if not forwarding ports can cause hanging? I get good ping times and have no problems connecting.

 
Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
if thats true, how come it never crashed until you changed up 3.6.9s multiplayer setup?
3.6.9's multiplayer setup has a whole bunch of bugs fixed.  Tom's build does not.  Tom's build is trying to do stuff it was never designed to do.

Anyway, this whole thing will become moot when PXO support is restored and you can use the retail build again.

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I think you have your facts backwards goober.
Gee, I'm sorry, you're right.  You know the source code much better than I do. :wtf:

Did i say now or did i say before goober? reread my post.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Until you're ready to pay the people who work on the SCP Multiplayer code, refer to the image below before you start passing criticism on their creations.




 

Offline karajorma

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
That's from the episode on GMO and starving people in Africa isn't it? :D
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Offline BlackDove

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
I don't know, I just googled "STFU Penn" and it came out (saw it as people's avatars before).

Also, as an aside, having David Caruso in your forum corner isn't bad either. He even points to the post and username, along with the appropriate message.



« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 09:30:12 pm by BlackDove »

 
Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Until you're ready to pay the people who work on the SCP Multiplayer code, refer to the image below before you start passing criticism on their creations.

OMFG! Why can't anybody READ MY DAMN POST and understand that I wasn't talking about toms build in PRESENT TENSE. god damn...

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Doesn't matter. You were still wrong whatever tense you were talking about. That's the whole point Goober was on about.

1) Tom's build is not a branch of the SCP. Never has been.
2) Tom's build contained FS2NetD code which is buggy. Since that code has not been fixed it still is buggy.

Past or present tense doesn't matter. Those two facts are still correct.
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Offline castor

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Well, Hunter was wrong in his wording, not so wrong in his meaning.
But this is sooo tiring, maybe we'd better stop here.

 

Offline taylor

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
I haven't really read this thread, so I don't feel it's appropriate for me to really comment on anything directly, but I will mention a couple of things:

1) With 3.6.10, the new FS2NetD code will finally be public, and it will bring:
  • non-blocking connections: it won't hang while it tries to connect to the FS2NetD server)
  • cross-platform support: it will be compatible with anything that can run FSO (32-bit/64-bit, Windows, Linux, OS X)
  • optimized packets: FS2NetD communications will work much better on slower connections as less data will have to be transferred
  • all new table validation: it will now only validate the tables which affect multiplayer balance, and it will fully support modular tables
  • new cfg file: it will return to using multi.cfg for it's setup, rendering fs2open_pxo.cfg obsolete
  • hard-coded defaults: default values for the servers and ports will be hard-coded in the binary, no need to change any cfg files for standard play

2) The new client and server code is NOT compatible with any existing builds, including Tom's.  All builds, except ones with the new FS2NetD code, will no longer be able to connect to the server the moment the daemon switches to the new version.  Tom will have to redo his build, ripping out all existing FS2NetD code and replacing it with the new FS2NetD API, in order to once again be compatible.


So, in about 3-4 months, there either won't be a "Tom's" build to worry about, or there will be and it will be using the new FS2NetD API which forces the use of all fixes.  Either way, the discussion is basically moot.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Well, Hunter was wrong in his wording, not so wrong in his meaning.
But this is sooo tiring, maybe we'd better stop here.

The thing is that, were Hunter simply stating problems with the build, it wouldn't be a problem, but by consistently recommending that people abandon 3.6.9 entirely and play Toms' build, it's actually giving the appearance of him attempting to cripple the Multiplay development of SCP with his actions.

Yes, no-one is denying that 3.6.9 has problems, but look at it this way, if everyone abandons 3.6.9 to play Multiplay on Toms' then there will be no point to Game Warden running the Multiplay server, and it will end up being dropped.

To be blunt, Tom's build may work for now, but it's honestly going to need a hell of a lot of work to keep up with SCP in the future, up to this point, a concious effort has been made to maintain backward compatibility, but that is now going to stop. Now, people can either back SCP and the potential offered by it, or they can play IP games over their own little groups, doesn't bother me either way, but coming onto the board that contains the group developing SCP and saying 'Don't play SCP, play Tom's build!' is obviously not going to recieve a warm welcome to that comment.


 
Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
I understand the emotion surrounding the subject, but to be fair,

[DW]-Hunter is not trying to discourage use or development of the current build. His intentions and arguments are in good faith and quite in line with everyone else's

His advocacy of Tom's build will have no affect on new development, taylor has expressed that quite clearly.

In fact, [DW]-Hunter doesn't care at all which build is used, as long as it works for his specific purposes. He happens to play a LOT of multi-player, and so speaks with some authority on the current situation.

He's only insisting on using a) the least trouble free version, b) for multi-player, c) at the moment, d) for him and the people he plays with (that's a pretty narrow argument I think)... When the new build comes out and it works better for him, he'll drop Tom's like a rock, and will necessarily quit advocating its use.

[DW]-Hunter is just pointing out what needs to be fixed in the new version. The flaws in the current version have already been agreed upon, and taylor has already said they will be fixed.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 08:47:55 am by Huggybaby »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
If DW Hunter wants to complain about bugs he can post them in Mantis and wait for us to fix them like everyone else has to. He's not a special case and roaring about how we've broken multi is not going to make us solve his problems any faster. In fact it has precisely the opposite effect.
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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
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If DW Hunter wants to complain about bugs he can post them in Mantis and wait for us to fix them like everyone else has to.
Sounds logical to me.
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He's not a special case
Of course not!
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and roaring about how we've broken multi is not going to make us solve his problems any faster. In fact it has precisely the opposite effect.
I don't know one way or the other, I have no experience in the matter. But I don't see how one person pointing out bugs, no matter how vociferously, and even in the wrong forum, should cause everyone else to wait longer for fixes, but what do I know. I agree that's the prerogative of whoever fixes it.

 

Offline castor

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
To be blunt, Tom's build may work for now, but it's honestly going to need a hell of a lot of work to keep up with SCP in the future, up to this point, a concious effort has been made to maintain backward compatibility, but that is now going to stop. Now, people can either back SCP and the potential offered by it, or they can play IP games over their own little groups, doesn't bother me either way, but coming onto the board that contains the group developing SCP and saying 'Don't play SCP, play Tom's build!' is obviously not going to recieve a warm welcome to that comment.
Well, I'm (at least) as pro-scp as anyone here (Toms build doesn't even work on Linux, that I now use).
It's just that in the past, while FSO bugs were still plenty, TB basically kept MP going.
And now it appears to have become a symbol of something rotten? That seems a bit off to me, no matter from which angle I try and look at the matter.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
Tom's build is, in and of itself, a useful 'fill-in' for Freespace 2 Multiplay, it's allowed people to play whilst FSO was worked on, however, it is not, and was never intended to be, a complete replacement to be used in preference to FSO.

That is the problem, by keep pushing people towards Tom's build when people should be testing FSO, people are accidentally causing a stumbling block. 3.6.9. is not unplayable on Multiplay, or at least if it is then people should be posting problems in Mantis and talking to the SCP people, not simply switching builds and leaving someone else to deal with it, certainly enough people can log on and play to mean that if there is a problem, it's a localised one.

Tom's build is not a symbol of something rotten, but nor is the SCP not worth bothering with om Multiplay when you have Tom's build. You should be playing 3.6.9 for preference and ONLY using Tom's build if you are having problems with FSO that simply cannot be fixed over the boards or via Mantis.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
I don't know one way or the other, I have no experience in the matter. But I don't see how one person pointing out bugs, no matter how vociferously, and even in the wrong forum, should cause everyone else to wait longer for fixes, but what do I know. I agree that's the prerogative of whoever fixes it.

Let me explain it simply. It's not that I decide to leave bugs in the engine cause of his attitude. I fix bugs on a priority scale based on how important they are and how hard they are to fix.

When someone's idea of a bug report is to shout "FSO Sucks! It crashes all the time!" They're not going to get whatever bug that was fixed. I've been given no information about what the bug was, nor how I can reproduce it, nor an errorlog pointing out what kind of error it could be. They've not run a debug build and given me an assertion that points directly at the offending code.

All they've done is come on here and insist I give up my free time to fix errors I don't get when I play online while insulting the hard work I've done stabilising the engine along with other members of the team. They've made the problem much harder to fix that it could be.

So instead I'll go back to Mantis and pick a different bug to fix.
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Re: "hacked media tables" don't yell at me pleese
That makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation.  8)