Author Topic: GTVA design flaw discussion  (Read 3842 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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GTVA design flaw discussion
Tell me if I'm on to something here:

GTA builds Orion-class ships to combat Vasudans.

Shivans come along and wipe out Orions with the Lucifer's beams.

GTVA builds Colossus to combat Lucifer-class ships.

Shivans bring in the Sathanas and wipe out the Colossus.


And now, even though it ain't canon, this is the design mindset that there is in the community:

GTVA builds Charon with the ability to combat possible Sathanas-class ships.

Can anyone guess what happens next?  

Now, I'm not BWO-bashing - far from it. I'm just picking out a pattern in "ship" design that has proven to fail time and again - building something with a specific purpose of countering a known enemy factor. And so ships get bigger and badder, with no end in sight.

But on the other hand, what alternative is there? What could the GTVA change to break out of this sick cycle of ever-increasing power-houses?

How do you fight a kindergarten bully who's twice as big and three times as strong as you are? Easy.

Play dirty.

Go for the eyes, go for the throat - go for the jugular vein. Hit him where it counts, and then when he goes down, hit him again. Ender's Game, anyone?

Looking at this post, it seems like a p1mp poster for the FS2.9 campaign, and that there should be some sort of p1mping image right here. ;P

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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Shrike

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GTVA design flaw discussion
Uhh... don't you mean the Golgotha?
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline Thorn

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Ender's Game

Good book  
And that is the only way to go when youre outmatched. Its not about playing fair, that only gets you hurt. Its about surviving, and to hell with what people think of you.

[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited 01-03-2002).]

  

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
Uhh... don't you mean the Golgotha?

Umm... no, I meant the Charon, the portal. It's armament is very heavy to combat possible intruding Sathani, from what I understand. But I guess the Golgotha is another example, although I'm not familiar with the intended tactical uses of the Golgotha in combat.

EDIT: Typos - don't think I've ever seen the Sathanas's name misspelled that badly...  

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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place!

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"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
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[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 01-03-2002).]
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Ace

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GTVA design flaw discussion
The Golgotha though is intended as a "giant killer" as the Meson beam is meant to be able to take out a Sathani in 4 or so shots. (now a team of Golgothas... yess...)

Hopefully you'll like the Vasudan's idea for a giant killer better  


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Offline Shrike

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Hmm, the Charon has heavy weaponry, yes, but that's a side-effect of the subspace gate systemry.  I don't remember seeing Sathani being mentioned specifically though.

As for going after the Shivan's weak points, you have to find them first.  Something the GTVA has been spectacularly unsuccessful at.  There's nothing to hit except warships as far as anyone really knows, (yes, there's comm nodes, but that didn't seem to do much good) so you don't have much options against Shivans.
WE ARE HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS. YOU WILL LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER YOUR KEYBOARDS. WE WILL ADD YOUR INTELLECTUAL AND VERNACULAR DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR FORUMS WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

 

Offline IceFire

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GTVA design flaw discussion
The Vasudan version is death by millions of bee stings  

I'm not so sure how well the Charon will do against a Sathanas, but it will be able to blast whatever tries to go through it.

The Golgotha is supposed to be able to engage the Sathanas, not in a head on confrontation, but in a sucker punch from the rear.  Basically, it has enough firepower to destroy a Sathanas before the Sathanas can turn to engage.  But its a pretty small margin of error.
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Offline Sandwich

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Whatevers.... my point was not to start another "my ship is better then your ship" thread - I wanted some serious discussion about the ways in which the GTVA could better direct it's combat against the Shivans instead of focusing on building bigger and better.

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place!

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Stryke 9

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GTVA design flaw discussion
I already tested one possible- irradiation cruisers that can take out most of a ship's subsystems in a single shot- if they get right up next to it.

 

Offline Ace

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GTVA design flaw discussion
Sub-space missile strikes are a good idea on crippling sub-systems.

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Offline Stryke 9

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But any good game weapon should be possible to defend against. I think I'll just give out all the curious monstrosities I got from playing with the existing FS POFs and the table files (so yes, they're possible with a little creativity with numbers):

Mines (countermeasures dumped out of mining ships (messed-up suppliers) (40 per ship is a good number- just set the missile lifetime to nearly infinite)

Very slow but powerful and ultra-accurate antifighter missiles- with a little maneuvering you can generally convince an AI fighter to get hit by one, and they can fairly pack enough firepower to kill most things straight off.

Slow-moving, short-ranged primary weapons with ridiculous power consumption put damage approaching that of a Cyclops

Player-available sentry guns (just remove the capability to move forward, or make it only possible with afterburners and that only a little. You haven't played FreeSpace 'till you've played turret)

That's all I can recall at the moment. Might upload these later, if anyone's interested and too damn lazy to spend a max 15 minutes and make their own

 

Offline penguin

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GTVA design flaw discussion
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Whatevers.... my point was not to start another "my ship is better then your ship" thread - I wanted some serious discussion about the ways in which the GTVA could better direct it's combat against the Shivans instead of focusing on building bigger and better.



From a defensive point of view, survivability would be increased if a big ship (like Colossus) could split into smaller independent sub-ships when it takes damage to one section... think of the NTF Boadicea in the second FS2 mission; alternatively, think of it as Deimos-sized escape pods  

It may not be possible with the current FS2 engine, since "Hull Strength" applies to the entire ship, and when it reaches zero, *boom*.  But if I were the GTVA, or an design engineer at Subach-Innes or Akheton...  
Of course this would require massive redundancy -- each section would need all of the subsystems that any vessel needs -- and this wouldn't come cheap.  But the alternative is "20 years in the making, it was vaporized in a matter of minutes"
your source code slave

 
GTVA design flaw discussion
I see it this way.

Terrans: Humans are known to balance Power with Speed. At times humans portray burt strength and no speed, or speed with no power. IE intercepters and heavy assault fighters. all species do this to some degree but none has it more balanced then humans. atleast when it comes to fighters and bombers. capital ships by humans are there prime example of balance.

SHIVANS show the balance of nothing but brute force. all weapons pointing foward.

anyway to make a long story short... the Colossus wasnt designed with flaws in it. if thought in as a part of a storyline that consisted over time. it is apparent that the Sathanas existed long before the colossus. it was made to deal with Lucifer/Hades class ships and below. not ships as strong as it because they didnt think anything existed as big as it did.

 
GTVA design flaw discussion
 
Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
Tell me if I'm on to something here:

GTA builds Orion-class ships to combat Vasudans.

Shivans come along and wipe out Orions with the Lucifer's beams.

GTVA builds Colossus to combat Lucifer-class ships.

Shivans bring in the Sathanas and wipe out the Colossus.


And now, even though it ain't canon, this is the design mindset that there is in the community:

GTVA builds Charon with the ability to combat possible Sathanas-class ships.

Can anyone guess what happens next?  

Now, I'm not BWO-bashing - far from it. I'm just picking out a pattern in "ship" design that has proven to fail time and again - building something with a specific purpose of countering a known enemy factor. And so ships get bigger and badder, with no end in sight.

But on the other hand, what alternative is there? What could the GTVA change to break out of this sick cycle of ever-increasing power-houses?

How do you fight a kindergarten bully who's twice as big and three times as strong as you are? Easy.

Play dirty.

Go for the eyes, go for the throat - go for the jugular vein. Hit him where it counts, and then when he goes down, hit him again. Ender's Game, anyone?

Looking at this post, it seems like a p1mp poster for the FS2.9 campaign, and that there should be some sort of p1mping image right here. ;P



where was it said that TERRANS made orions to fight vasudans? i thought they were created before they met vasudans. i may have my history mixed up...


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Offline Stryke 9

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Not really. Here's how I see it...

Sathanas: Massive destructive capabilities focused almost entirely to narrow front cone- ideal for for attacks on large capships, particularly sneak attacks (i.e. the Sathanas jmps in right next to its target and blasts it with one or two beam hits before the enemy can react adequately- obviously the Shivans designed the Sath with this in mind, looking at the way it acts in the nebula with devastating effectiveness vs. how it does exposed between jumps). Still, with its enormous power the Sath can sometimes simply bludgeon its way through a capship fight, though it is essentially defenseless against bombers.

Colossus: Features a wide damage arc, nearly 360* of fairly evenly distributed weaponry. This ship is meant to operate best at the center of a large enemy fleet composed of much smaller ships- it can take on and trounce a Hecate fairly easily, but it couldn't deal with a half dozen like the Sathanas could. Altogether the Colossus has the more dangerous application, overall not a good idea in Terran designs. But then, the designers didn't know what sort of enemy it would end up taking on, did they?


My past life as an E2150 combat strategist comes back to me sometimes... Anyway, this is really the lay of things as far as I can tell. As you can see, it's actually the Shivans with the strategy on their side, which is too bad since the best way to make balanced Terran fleets in FS is to have them weaker but smarter. Both are ideal for what they are made for, but sometimes I don't think FREDders realize how best to exploit their strong points, which leaves the Sathanas simply hacking its way through capships and looking dramatic, while the Colossus is rejected because it cannot do same. Throw a few dozen Fenrises, Leviathans, Aeoluses, and miscellaneous fighter/bombers at the C and see how much better it lays down suppressing fire than the Sath.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by deep_eyes:

where was it said that TERRANS made orions to fight vasudans? i thought they were created before they met vasudans. i may have my history mixed up...

Hmm... you may be right - I haven't quite researched it, after all.  

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

Know how to use Rhino3D? Want to put your ships into Freespace 2? You've come to the right place!

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline USS Alexander

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the shivan come with the SSTSTGSDest and blow up the whole galaxy.......end of story.


SSTSTGSdest stands for, Shivan Super The Super Turbo Gallactic Super destroyer
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Offline Skippy

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Quote
Originally posted by USS Alexander:
the shivan come with the SSTSTGSDest and blow up the whole galaxy.......end of story.


SSTSTGSdest stands for, Shivan Super The Super Turbo Gallactic Super destroyer

 

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Offline joek

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GTVA design flaw discussion
You're right. I don't think it should be entirely about building bigger and bigger ships to face each other. There should also be new strategies to deal with the bigger and bigger ships, not just bigger ships to face them.

What's the range of in-system jumps? One of my ideas is that when a Sathanas jumps in against your Colossus, your Colossus (who always keep their jump drives ready to go) jumps into subspace, but not to a different part of the system, but to behind the Sathanas. Then it can wail on the Sathanas with its beams (first targeting the engines... I guess you can see that as another flaw with GTVA captains (or just mission designers), if you know where your enemy's subsystems are, aim your beams at them first), while the Sathanas is trying to turn.

That handles a Sathanas jumping against a Colossus. Sure the Colossus takes damage as the Sathanas fires as soon as it jumps in, but getting away from those forward beams as soon as possible is the key.

To attack a Sathanas though, you could just send a swarm of smaller ships (though having scouted ahead to know in which direction the Sathanas is facing so that your swarm doesn't jump in front of its beams). Granted the Colossus has the greates weapon capacity, but smaller ships are faster and more agile.

The GTVA (or mission/model designers) should also look into strategies that are more like David vs. Goliath, rather than Goliath vs. David.

And about the Orions, I don't remember if it was built to fight the Vasudans, but I know that the Typhon was built to fight the Terrans.

Joe.

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Offline wEvil

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GTVA design flaw discussion
theres a certain combat sequence in the movie a little like that  


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