[IceFire]

It's not just the extremists, look what the Muslims as a whole are doing to France.

What are they doing?  From what I understand the French are forcing integration by enforcing a very secularized public education system.  It sounds somewhat discriminatory but it does appear to put everyone on even ground.  I don't know enough about the issues to say more or understand the implications.

[KappaWing]

It's not just the extremists, look what the Muslims as a whole are doing to France.

What are they doing?  From what I understand the French are forcing integration by enforcing a very secularized public education system.  It sounds somewhat discriminatory but it does appear to put everyone on even ground.  I don't know enough about the issues to say more or understand the implications.

The Muslims have been rapidly immigrating, and The French have done exceptionally well dealing with it thus far (secularization laws). These laws are not discriminatory at all because the same policy applies to Christian and Jewish stuff as well. However, if they continue to immigrate at the current rate, they may overtake the country and reverse the secularization laws. Not to mention their birthrate is INSANE compared to native French, and they immigrate just as fast. Anyone who has been keeping track of this knows that they are seriously poised to overtake the country.

[Nuclear1]

It's not just the extremists, look what the Muslims as a whole are doing to France.

What are they doing?  From what I understand the French are forcing integration by enforcing a very secularized public education system.  It sounds somewhat discriminatory but it does appear to put everyone on even ground.  I don't know enough about the issues to say more or understand the implications.

The Muslims have been rapidly immigrating, and The French have done exceptionally well dealing with it thus far (secularization laws). These laws are not discriminatory at all because the same policy applies to Christian and Jewish stuff as well. However, if they continue to immigrate at the current rate, they may overtake the country and reverse the secularization laws. Not to mention their birthrate is INSANE compared to native French, and they immigrate just as fast. Anyone who has been keeping track of this knows that they are seriously poised to overtake the country.

Well, there is that thing about democracy called the will of the majority.  If the immigrating Muslims who become citizens wish to change the government to suit their needs, then that is well within their right.  However, a state based around any particular faith usually has not stood up well in regions where there are multiple major religions, and the end result may very well be internal strife or ethnic tension.

You all can think what you wish; it could be a vast Arab conspiracy to bring down the West through turning popular sovereignty against democracies, or it could be just a large number of Arabs who see France and the West in general as being a better world than the Middle East and Africa.  There are any number of options, though I personally believe that fear of Arab immigrants overturning the government is just as ridiculous as being afraid of the mass immigration from Europe to the US.

In many cases, immigration can do nothing but strengthen a country through allowing it to adopt ideas and customs of its new arrivals and their offspring.  Hell, my weekly diet usually consists of fried rice from the Chinese takeout up the street and an occasional sitdown at the local Mexican restaurant just as much as I enjoy meals from places run by white Americans.  Immigration usually can go over well so long as the country allows its minorities to integrate peacefully and willfully, not forceably as through France's secularization laws.  If the Arabs and Muslims wish to remain separate and retain their culture while living in France, that is their choice; it is never the government's place to force a group to mix against its own will.

[NGTM-1R]

I think there is a hidden fear that isn't vocalized much...and its quite similar to the McCarthyist period...where people think that Islam is trying to take over the world in some sort of religious revolution.  It doesn't help when some of the extremists are saying that exact thing.

Actually, Islam as a whole has always kind of assumed that they would eventually be Last Religion Standing^TM, being newer and to their minds better then the other religions they actually profess some respect for (Judaism and Christianity); everyone else is a bunch of paganistic loonies. Paganistic being meant in the original connotations of the term.

That is IMO one of the fundemental causes of Islam's troubles. They thought they would win; now they look like they're losing.

[Grizzly]

Not to mention their birthrate is INSANE compared to native French, and they immigrate just as fast. Anyone who has been keeping track of this knows that they are seriously poised to overtake the country.

Quoted for being fantasy.

[aldo_14]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2550502,00.html

France has overtaken Ireland to become the European nation with the highest birthrate after decades of policies to promote childbearing and large families.

More children were born in 2006 than in any year since 1981, the National Statistics Institute said, taking the fertility rate to two babies per woman for the first time since 1974. This compares with about 1.8 in Britain, which also has one of the higher rates. The slowly rising European Union average is 1.52, and the rate needed to replenish generations is 2.07.

French officials hailed the 3 per cent rise as confirmation of the success of expensive schemes to encourage couples to produce more children, while also remaining in the workforce. French women now give birth at an average age of 30, and half the children are born outside marriage. Almost 50 per cent of the working population is female. The birthrate among immigrants generally matched that of native-born French.

[KappaWing]

Joshua, if you dont have anything with substance to add, kindly stfu.

And aldo, I suppose the data all depends on the source.

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/taspinar20030301.htm

Today, the Muslim birth rate in Europe is three times higher than the non-Muslim

[aldo_14]

Joshua, if you dont have anything with substance to add, kindly stfu.

And aldo, I suppose the data all depends on the source.

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/taspinar20030301.htm

Today, the Muslim birth rate in Europe is three times higher than the non-Muslim

And then on the other hand....

Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world’s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa), it is falling faster than the birth rate of any other culture. By 2050, according to the latest UN projections, the population growth rate of the Muslim world will converge on that of the United States (although it will be much higher than Europe's or China's).

Albeit I'd note that the post I quoted referred to native French, not muslims, unless you believe muslims cannot be native french citizens.

[KappaWing]

Other sources predict the birthrate will simply continue to increase, but I'm not going to have an "inconsistant sources" battle with you.

I suppose it will depend on world events, especially how the French continue to respond to the mass immigration and how events unfold in the mid east.

[aldo_14]

Other sources predict the birthrate will simply continue to increase, but I'm not going to have an "inconsistant sources" battle with you.

I suppose it will depend on world events, especially how the French continue to respond to the mass immigration and how events unfold in the mid east.

The birthrate will probably only increase in terms of African muslims; the tendency everywhere else, IIRC, has been for population decrease regardless of religion.

[Nuclear1]

Other sources predict the birthrate will simply continue to increase, but I'm not going to have an "inconsistant sources" battle with you.

I suppose it will depend on world events, especially how the French continue to respond to the mass immigration and how events unfold in the mid east.

The birthrate will probably only increase in terms of African muslims; the tendency everywhere else, IIRC, has been for population decrease regardless of religion.

Precisely.  I thought it was France's policy to counter this with the large family program that they have going on.  It's really bad in Italy, IIRC.

[aldo_14]

Other sources predict the birthrate will simply continue to increase, but I'm not going to have an "inconsistant sources" battle with you.

I suppose it will depend on world events, especially how the French continue to respond to the mass immigration and how events unfold in the mid east.

The birthrate will probably only increase in terms of African muslims; the tendency everywhere else, IIRC, has been for population decrease regardless of religion.

AFAIK every country in the EU has a declining population due to lower birth rates; France and Ireland being the highest, but still below the level needed to maintain a constant population.

Precisely.  I thought it was France's policy to counter this with the large family program that they have going on.  It's really bad in Italy, IIRC.

[IPAndrews]

Look. Muslims may indeed by the villain of the moment but does that mean they are beyond reproach? I think that it's long past the point now where the muslim community has proven itself the most racist and megalomaniacal community on the face of the Earth. So I'm starting to get a little annoyed that we are so concerned about treating them fairly. You think they give a damn about us? If they did they wouldn't set up their own little ghettos in foreign countries whilst simultaneously blowing foreigners up and sticking them in orange jump suits. They are a problem. Stop beating yourselves up for recognising the blatantly obvious and start dealing with it. Ok you're all very nice people but that doesn't mean you have to be understanding about the guys who want to murder you and your family because you happen to not believe in their particular fictional deity.

[KappaWing]

Which is exactly why muslims who don't agree with that approach need to label themselves differently.... As I (tried to) explain earlier.

[aldo_14]

Look. Muslims may indeed by the villain of the moment but does that mean they are beyond reproach? I think that it's long past the point now where the muslim community has proven itself the most racist and megalomaniacal community on the face of the Earth. So I'm starting to get a little annoyed that we are so concerned about treating them fairly. You think they give a damn about us? If they did they wouldn't set up their own little ghettos in foreign countries whilst simultaneously blowing foreigners up and sticking them in orange jump suits. They are a problem. Stop beating yourselves up for recognising the blatantly obvious and start dealing with it. Ok you're all very nice people but that doesn't mean you have to be understanding about the guys who want to murder you and your family because you happen to not believe in their particular fictional deity.

Except all muslims are not 'the guys who want to murder you', which is exactly my bloody point.

[IPAndrews]

Except all muslims are not 'the guys who want to murder you', which is exactly my bloody point.

And I'm sure that "point" would be a great consolation to you when one of the many, many, many muslims who do want to see you dead get hold of you, torture you, and behead. Maybe you can argue points with them since you're so good at it.

[Agent_Koopa]

Which is exactly why muslims who don't agree with that approach need to label themselves differently.... As I (tried to) explain earlier.

So, Muslims who follow the Islamic faith need to call themselves something other than Muslims? Like what? Muslims Who Follow Islam But Don't Believe In Blowing People Up (Which Obviously Everybody Who Calls Themselves Muslim Does)? There are Christians who believe in treating everybody fairly and there are Christians who believe in torching gays. Does this call for a splinter group, Christians Who Don't Believe In Torching Gays And Who Believe They Can Be Rather Nice People? No! Ultraliberal and ultraconservative Christians alike believe in Christ as God's son, therefore they are Christians. They should be referred to as such.




This post is a work of fiction. I in no way meant to imply that any conservative-leaning people of the Christian faith in fact set fire to any person, particularly because of their homosexuality or stance regarding thereof. Any such implications are strictly coincidental.

[KappaWing]

The Christians HAVE made spliner groups. For example, one would expect a Baptist sect to be much more radically conservative than a Unitarian sect. Islam's two main groups, Sunni and Shiite, are both tied to radical conservative actions.

EDIT: Spellcheck

[aldo_14]

Except all muslims are not 'the guys who want to murder you', which is exactly my bloody point.

And I'm sure that "point" would be a great consolation to you when one of the many, many, many muslims who do want to see you dead get hold of you, torture you, and behead. Maybe you can argue points with them since you're so good at it.

How many?

[IPAndrews]

Wouldn't a splinter group of the Muslim religion that's pro-actively positive about respect for other peoples and religions be a wonderful thing? I imagine a group like that could get a lot of media coverage and achieve a lot of good. Then we could all say to them "Fair play to you. Now come in, have a cup of tea, and tell me about your prophets.".