Author Topic: Rant: "African American" politics.  (Read 5635 times)

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Offline vyper

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
"Affirmative Action" simply replaces one form of racism with another; discriminating against whites instead of blacks. It doesn't sound like the kind of plan that will bring about great social equality and understanding.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
I always thought 'positive discrimination' was an oxymoron.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
well i hate all people equilly. :D

i think when theese black people complain about being discriminated against, i mearly think of the poorest african countries where 1 in 3 people has aids, eat canned bugs, and kids have worms crawling out their nasal passeges. when you think about it american blacks have more rights, privledges and oppritunitys than those unfortunate blacks living in the poorest african communities.

a much bigger problem i find is thug culture. its a huge maturity stunter. they drug and **** around and occasionally shoot somone. thug culture encapsulates every race too. blacks, asians, hispanics and whites all wearing gang colors. there are alot of well off black people, i think theyre that way cause they seporated themselves from the thug culture. it also doesnt help with the gluted music companies pumping millions into rap music to make a quick buck of human suffering.

its been true sence the dawn of man: people just suck.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Quote
My thoughts are that you're hugely overreacting.  The white population of the USA has an overwhelming financial, economic, political and social advantage over other ethnicities, and this kind of reminds me of how some of the more fundamentalist christians complain of 'bias' despite being a majority group.  I've seen similar things in Scotland / UK, and they're usually just as overreactionary.


Do they have race quotas in university admissions over there? There was a huge contraversy about it in the University of Michigan (IIRC) a few years ago because in its admissions points system, it gave a lot more points for being a "minority" than it did for any kind of scholastic achievement.

One of the things that seriously annoyed me at my old university was their "diversity scholarship". I did not know a single white disabled student who got it, even though it was supposed to be for disabled people as well as minorities. In reality it is a totally arbitrary race based scholarship that even many minority students didn't get. Like a couple friends of mine were either of asian decent and were born in America, or their families went to America at an early age. Two of them told me the financial aid office told them that asians could no longer get it, yet I knew a third one who did get it, despite being the same ethnicity. Smells like bull**** to me.

And of course one thing I really resented was that you could get scholarships if you were black or hispanic or asian, but not if you were autistic. Aren't autistic people special in their own way?

Overall I guess I have a problem with all of these schools throwing all kinds of money based simply on the way they look. ****ing rediculous.

Whoops, forgot to reply to this.

No, we don't have positive discrimination; and to reiterate I think it's rather a pointless and self-defeating excercise.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Whoops, forgot to reply to this.

No, we don't have positive discrimination; and to reiterate I think it's rather a pointless and self-defeating excercise.

You're finished knitting Satan's warm little mittens, right?

He's going to need them very soon at this rate.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Whoops, forgot to reply to this.

No, we don't have positive discrimination; and to reiterate I think it's rather a pointless and self-defeating excercise.

You're finished knitting Satan's warm little mittens, right?

He's going to need them very soon at this rate.

Explain.

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Whoops, forgot to reply to this.

No, we don't have positive discrimination; and to reiterate I think it's rather a pointless and self-defeating excercise.

You're finished knitting Satan's warm little mittens, right?

He's going to need them very soon at this rate.

Explain.

I agree with you, which is a rarity, and therefore that which rarely occurs will cause Satan to adapt to slighter colder conditions.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
I agree with you, which is a rarity, and therefore that which rarely occurs will cause Satan to adapt to slighter colder conditions.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. just went gold, methinks the devil is in his winter togs already.... ;)

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Wall of text is about to crit you for 7.4k. Beware.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Most of what you said is fair and true, but you're missing a few points of historical and social context.

- The term African-American is being phased out of American culture, because, as observed by yourself, the term doesn't really fit the larger ticket anymore. Most traditional "African-Americans" (e.g. "Blacks," "Negros" etc) are now more distanced from Africa than they are from America. With much of the turbulence of Black family structure and culture (due to Slavery, Segregation, absent parents and so on)  it's difficult for the average Black kid in the Bay, or Houston, or Harlem, to trace his lineage back to any particular or distinct African origin. Most new generations of Black (specifically African-American decendence) have little remaining true cultural or familial connections to the African continent or culture as well.

My point? As you're saying, the term African-American doesn't fit. I've noticed over the past couple years (throughout my lifespan, and the past decades in history) the term "Black" is becoming far more accepted by both the traditional "African-American" community, and by others in the US. The Black community, as I've seen, has begun to recognize and accept the fact that it's now its own distinct entity and culture, and no long ties itself to the African population. For all intents and purposes, I believe this is a step in the right direction, as it is obvious that the Black community here in the US of A is distinctly different from the modern day peoples or even immigrants of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya, and so on.

The confusion comes in when self-righteous advocacy groups come in with political agendas and start tearing up healed wounds over frivolous **** like being called "Black" instead of "African American." Surprise! Just like a misspelling of the vulgarity "nigger" gave hip-hop an alias, a redefined "black" gave the Black community a name to define their cultural identity beyond the colour of their skin, but not forgetting it. In either event, people that bicker over titles instead of doing something productive don't give much credit to the content of their character, and don't really deserve much attention.

Another interesting perspective on race you may relate to, and prominant in politics is that of Barrack Obama, who had an interesting take on the "African-American" label in his book The Audacity of Hope. In short, Obama's father is a Kenyan-immigrant, and his mother American. In the most literal sense, he is as African American as one can be. Yet, he doesn't really relate to the traditional "African American" culture of the 300 years in the US at all. He describes himself as being very much African, and being very much American, but not African American at all. Interesting.



So i came to a conclusion.  And this conclusion, as racist as it sounds, i think is completely true.  And there are exceptions.  To every rule in society, there are exceptions, but I think to the majority of black/African-Americans living in the United States, MOST of them hold chips on their shoulders.  You still see lawsuits today... black people trying to sue other people and governments because their GRAND FATHER was a slave.  They're trying to screw the government or some poor individual or organization out of money for the suffering their GRAND FATHER, who they NEVER KNEW OR MET, went through.  W. T. F...
This chip on the shoulder extends to all aspects of life and communication.  You get in an argument with a black person?  Eventually... sooner or later... the race card is going to be pulled out.  Watch.  Always happens.


- So, after the Civil War, with the 14th Ammendment, and African-Americans (the term correctly being applied in the context of history) supposedly being free people, they were promised by Lincoln and General Sherman the famous "40 Acres and a Mule" as reparations for generations of slavery, and the destruction of the African slaves' society as they knew it (although they had created and will soon build upon their own unique and distinct society, as mentioned above.) Returning to Africa was largely out of the question, though it was attempted with the founding of Liberia. Most African Americans (yes, even back then) truly had lost their African roots, knowing no currently living people, and having no connections left to Africa other than what they've heard of their ancestors. So, the best the US Gov. could do was provide them with reparations.

Well, thanks to Andrew Johnson's presidency and his Supreme Court, the 40 Acres deal was vetoed, and African Americans were kicked to "Seperate but equal" status commonly known as "segregation" that officially ended with MLK.

So, history lesson aside, why the hell should Blacks today have any right to ask for compensation for the mistreatment of their African American ancestors? Well, for one, their families never got to keep their 40 Acres, or their mule. The land alone, if passed down from generation to generation, could be worth a great deal, not to mention the profit that each family could have earned over the years working the land, developing it, selling it, etc. Secondly, the fact remains, despite time, that the culture of the African slaves was destroyed by the policies and economics of those in the US. This was never truly repaid by the government that supported those policies. Easily arguable, the status and particularly, wealth, of the Black community today could be vastly different had they not been enslaved as they were, had they even been paid after the Civil War, as they should have.

On the flipside of it, I'm sure there are  plenty of people out there looking to make a quick buck at the government's (taxpayer's) expense and cry about Great Grand Daddy's hardships, and how that lead to growing up in the Projects which ultimately led to a ****ty life, not really giving a damn about his culture's suffering, and completely avoiding any sense of self-reliance. They get paid because the US legal system in this case, is based more upon evidence and fact than feeling.


- As far as your feelings on "Hate Crimes," there was an episode of The West Wing where a man's son was killed by four teenagers, supposedly because his son was gay. The (fictional) Bartlett Administration wanted to use the crime as a reason to push through a Hate Crimes Bill, and wanted the man to step up and publically support and endorse it. He refused. The Administration thought it was because he was embarassed of his son being gay. In reality, the man, while grieving the loss of his son, didn't "believe that it's right for government to punish someone for what's in their head while they commit a crime."

True enough, the creation of the "hate crime" idea implies that when a gay, or black, or jew, or muslim is murdered, it's not simply because the murderer didn't like them, or was insane already, but because he murdered them specifically because they were gay, black, jewish, or muslim, and as such, is a worse crime. While perhaps progressive towards a secure society, this obviously conflicts with the liberties of the first ammendment.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
So, history lesson aside, why the hell should Blacks today have any right to ask for compensation for the mistreatment of their African American ancestors? Well, for one, their families never got to keep their 40 Acres, or their mule. The land alone, if passed down from generation to generation, could be worth a great deal, not to mention the profit that each family could have earned over the years working the land, developing it, selling it, etc. Secondly, the fact remains, despite time, that the culture of the African slaves was destroyed by the policies and economics of those in the US. This was never truly repaid by the government that supported those policies. Easily arguable, the status and particularly, wealth, of the Black community today could be vastly different had they not been enslaved as they were, had they even been paid after the Civil War, as they should have.

On the flipside of it, I'm sure there are  plenty of people out there looking to make a quick buck at the government's (taxpayer's) expense and cry about Great Grand Daddy's hardships, and how that lead to growing up in the Projects which ultimately led to a ****ty life, not really giving a damn about his culture's suffering, and completely avoiding any sense of self-reliance. They get paid because the US legal system in this case, is based more upon evidence and fact than feeling.

I'm well aware that blacks can feel that the government of the past betrayed them with that action but when you get down to it who can't trace their life back and find some historical injustice somewhere in their family tree? Do I get to sue the English for colonial rule of India?

If you're going to go down that route you'd have to clear the whole of America and give it back to the Indians who actually had possession of the whole country before white or black people came along. Where is there equivalent of repayment for 40 Acres and a mule? They can make every bit as strong a case for how they were illegal deprived of all kinds of land.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.

I'm well aware that blacks can feel that the government of the past betrayed them with that action but when you get down to it who can't trace their life back and find some historical injustice somewhere in their family tree? Do I get to sue the English for colonial rule of India?

If you're going to go down that route you'd have to clear the whole of America and give it back to the Indians who actually had possession of the whole country before white or black people came along. Where is there equivalent of repayment for 40 Acres and a mule? They can make every bit as strong a case for how they were illegal deprived of all kinds of land.

- I don't know. I'm not well versed in any historical injustices commited by the English against India. Take some agency, try it out, and let me know. I've never heard of it before though.

- True, but there aren't enough Indians *****ing about mistreatment to warrant anything further as far as I know. They already live on their own legal lands, tax-free. They also get to have casinos.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 03:51:05 pm by Knight Templar »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
So if the Indians did start *****ing about it you'd agree that the Black people had to drop their claim for American land since it didn't belong to the white people in the first place and they probably knew that fact already?


The point I'm making is that ****ty things happened in the past. There has to be a cut off point where you stop trying to redress the wrongs that were done in the past in this way. Why should what group A did to group B matter if everyone in both groups and all their immediate descendants are now dead? Cause if you take this to it's natural conclusion the only sensible outcome is for us to clone Neanderthals to take over Europe and then bugger off back to Africa.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
So if the Indians did start *****ing about it you'd agree that the Black people had to drop their claim for American land since it didn't belong to the white people in the first place and they probably knew that fact already?

No, I wouldn't. Morally, perhaps, but that's not always the best way to run things. Legally, and realistically, the Native Americans have largely existed outside and separate from the US, even today. The difference being that African Americans were American people (Nation of the United States, not the continent) systematically oppressed and denied rights. I won't claim to be a legal or Native American history expert, but at this point, I would put a scenario with Native Americans asking for further reparations next to Mexico asking for reparations for losing California and Texas.


Quote
The point I'm making is that ****ty things happened in the past. There has to be a cut off point where you stop trying to redress the wrongs that were done in the past in this way. Why should what group A did to group B matter if everyone in both groups and all their immediate descendants are now dead? Cause if you take this to it's natural conclusion the only sensible outcome is for us to clone Neanderthals to take over Europe and then bugger off back to Africa.

 :wtf: Neanderthals and Europe?

There is a cut-off point, sure. But I'm pretty sure I outlined why some people in the United States still feel they are owed, and why the US Government feels it has a duty to repay them. If I wasn't clear, I'll re-iterate: The effects of slavery didn't end at the Civil War. I know not all of you are Americans, so you may not be familiar with US history, but the Blacks lived legally in segregation until the the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's. And even that wasn't the end of unofficial segregation, which is still real in some parts of the country. The point is, a lot of people of African-American lineage are still living under the effects of actions taken by institutions and families centuries ago, institutions and families which still exist today. The idea of a man crying about his Great Grandfather's mistreatment to get some money is a euphemism, but still real, still a hint toward the larger problem.
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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
The effects of slavery didn't end at the Civil War.

The effects of the "Trail of Tears" didn't end with the Cherokee, Choctaw, and various other tribes resettling in Oklahoma, either.  I don't get your belief that the claims of "African-Americans" are somehow more legitimate than those of Native Americans.  The former group was enslaved and oppressed by white America, but let's look at fundamental cause and effect.  How did they get there in the first place?  Right.  Their own people back in Africa sold them out.  What happened to the Native Americans was calculated and deliberate genocide conducted at every level of white American society from the President down to the peasant farmers.

If we're going to start making reparations to everyone we've wronged (and I'm not saying we should go down that road), the American Indians are way further ahead in line than the African Americans.  Perhaps I'm somewhat biased as I am (very) distantly related to the Choctaw, perhaps also because I have lived near various reservations in the past and have seen first hand what ****holes they are (the Indian reservations are on land that no one else could be bothered to claim because it was nearly worthless), but mostly it pisses me off that we as a nation committed so heinous a crime and refuse to acknowledge it.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
No, I wouldn't. Morally, perhaps, but that's not always the best way to run things. Legally, and realistically, the Native Americans have largely existed outside and separate from the US, even today. The difference being that African Americans were American people (Nation of the United States, not the continent) systematically oppressed and denied rights. I won't claim to be a legal or Native American history expert, but at this point, I would put a scenario with Native Americans asking for further reparations next to Mexico asking for reparations for losing California and Texas.


Only cause it best suited the government to do so. By claiming that they aren't American you can deny them the right to claim that they were mistreated to a similar degree that blacks in America were and justify not having to give them their fair recompense.

Whether they are actually asking for reparations is immaterial. The point I'm making is that they have at least as valid a claim as the blacks do. Perhaps an even more valid legal claim since the land you're saying was promised to the blacks was stolen land and there are various laws concerning the purchase of stolen property which you are not considering (I don't know what they do in the US but in the UK you have no legal redress against the original owner of stolen property if you are found in possession of it. You may sue the person who sold it to you but you may actually end up facing a criminal charge if it can be proven that you knew they were stolen).

Quote
:wtf: Neanderthals and Europe?


They did own it before modern humans came along and took it from them.

Quote
There is a cut-off point, sure. But I'm pretty sure I outlined why some people in the United States still feel they are owed, and why the US Government feels it has a duty to repay them.


They can feel that they are owed all they like. That doesn't make it actionable. The segregation laws of the time were the laws at the time. The government didn't actually do anything illegal by keeping them segregated so they have no legal cause of action. If you want to say that they have a moral cause I agree with you 100% but then we're back to why the Indians aren't getting the whole of America back.

Quote
The point is, a lot of people of African-American lineage are still living under the effects of actions taken by institutions and families centuries ago, institutions and families which still exist today. The idea of a man crying about his Great Grandfather's mistreatment to get some money is a euphemism, but still real, still a hint toward the larger problem.

And yet again I'm going to point at Indians living on reservations as an example of "people living under the effects of actions taken by institutions and families centuries ago." The fact that something ****ty happened in the past and its effects are still around doesn't mean that you can demand money for it now.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
I still think it's really dumb to have reparations to this day. The only way we'll remove racism from the general consciousness is to stop obsessing over things that were done in the past. In reality, probably most of the white people that have to pay out the reparations are now poor trailer trash - and the black people probably could get bye just as well without the reparations.
Why are people giving out money to the ancestors of the people that their ancestors oppressed? It's like punishing the son for the father's crimes.


On top of that, this whole crap about affirmative action (I know I mentioned this specifically before), and all the other little tidbits of our government that is designed to either categorize us or make "good" on crimes that were committed to the direct ancestors of people that have never met them, or probably even don't know who they were, only serves to exacerbate the race problem. Of course you're going to have a racially segregated society if you have to put what ethnicity you are in the census, or what ethnicity you are when you apply to college. Money should be given out by need, not race. With the current conditions, it'll end up going to mostly the same people anyway.


Anyway, end rant. I'm in English class and tired, so I'm not sure how coherent it is. :)

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
They can feel that they are owed all they like. That doesn't make it actionable. The segregation laws of the time were the laws at the time. The government didn't actually do anything illegal by keeping them segregated so they have no legal cause of action. If you want to say that they have a moral cause I agree with you 100% but then we're back to why the Indians aren't getting the whole of America back.

Passing legislation alone doesn't make it just. This is why we have a judicial branch that has the ability to overturn previous court rulings. Realizing that now, actions are being taken to write some wrongs of the past that are still adversely affecting the present, despite those wrongs' apparent legitimacy of their time.

The Native Americans are a seperate case as they are largely a nation of themselves, and not of the United States. While their treatment may have  also been unjust, it was also more akin to expansion / war / genocide (however you want to look at it.) This is seperate from the case of the African Americans as they were citizens of the United States, being systematically oppressed by their own government.

Like I said, Mexico doesn't really have grounds to demand California back, nor do the Native Americans to demand their ancestoral territory. It's called War, and it's ugly and unjust, but largely viewed as legitimate, particularly by the victors. And being that war is usually not against one's own nation, there's substantially less of an incentive to voluntarily compensate the defeated.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 03:49:58 pm by Knight Templar »
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Why are people giving out money to the ancestors of the people that their ancestors oppressed? It's like punishing the son for the father's crimes.

See the above discussion.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rant: "African American" politics.
Passing legislation alone doesn't make it just. This is why we have a judicial branch that has the ability to overturn previous court rulings. Realizing that now, actions are being taken to write some wrongs of the past that are still adversely affecting the present, despite those wrongs' apparent legitimacy of their time.

The Native Americans are a seperate case as they are largely a nation of themselves, and not of the United States. While their treatment may have  also been unjust, it was also more akin to expansion / war / genocide (however you want to look at it.) This is seperate from the case of the African Americans as they were citizens of the United States, being systematically oppressed by their own government.

Like I said, Mexico doesn't really have grounds to demand California back, nor do the Native Americans to demand their ancestoral territory. It's called War, and it's ugly and unjust, but largely viewed as legitimate, particularly by the victors. And being that war is usually not against one's own nation, there's substantially less of an incentive to voluntarily compensate the defeated.

It strikes me that you want to claim the Indians are a seperate nation so that the dreadful treatment of them can be excused as legitimate. But that argument doesn't wash with me. You claim that the slaves were poorly treated by their goverment but since when was it their government? They started off as Africans forcefully repatriated to a foreign country. The government was no more theirs than it was for the Indians.

And no matter how much you want to claim that the Indians are a seperate nation it's a load of bollocks by and large. Anyone born on a reservation is still an American citizen. They still have the basic laws of America covering them. That's the way it has been for years.

And why should it matter whether it was their own government repressing them or not anyway? You don't give out stiffer legal penalties just because the criminal is related to the victim.

As I said before you have no legal grounds for recompense. And if you want to start claiming you can get the judicial branch to over rule the previous mistakes of the past let's start discussing that many of the reductions in the size of Indian reservations happened not through war (as it that was a legal method of stealing land anyway!) but via various acts of congress similar to the one which reversed the whole "40 Acres and Mule" deal.
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