[Mustang19]

Hi. I haven't been on these boards for a while, but I was thinking of starting a campaign based on a political rebellion in GTVA space. I chose this as a campaign idea because as far as I can tell the GTVA government isn't entirely stable or efficient. You would assume by the 25th century that we would have a mechanism for virtual democracy, and human beings would be so genetically enhanced and modified as to be unrecognizable. But none of this has happened; Volition took the easy and stereotypical route and copy-and-pasted 20th century clothing, culture, language, and even hairstyles into the future. You never get to see civillian life in Freespace, but from command briefing references it appears to have not changed at all since the 20th century; there is still a senate, a school system (the Suicide Kings commander tells you that "you all learned about the McCarthy trials in school), the humans are still male and female whether they still reproduce sexually or not. About the only stab at creativity made by V is the single vague reference to Terran government being based on Greek philosophy, which I think are too utopian and simplistic to significantly change a society.

The Vasudans, too, seem rather conservative. In FS1 I liked the Vasudans; their emotionless voice and lack of conversation with humans gave them an air of mystery and uniqueness. FS2 pretty much killed this by giving Vasudans emotion, an Earth-style monarchy, and an emperor whose name was pronounceable by Terrans (Khontsu). In other words, they've become just another stereotyped alien race. Anyway, what is Vasudan culture like? It have to be conservative and docile for an imperial dynasty to last 10,000 years, I think, but that's all I can come up with.

So, what are Freespace's cultures like? Where is there room for friction and rebellion? Judging from how the Terrans broke apart and began to fight each other for a period during Reconstruction, they seem to be just as philosophically and culturally disunited as 20th century earth. The Vasudans, on the other hand, seem to have strong loyalties and faith, but there may be room for rebellion and unrest against imperial despotism, if despotism exists in Vasuda. What are your ideas? What would a good campaign on these lines be about?

[Titan]

  I thought you were taking the SATs.............. you have time to right a thesis on FS2 but not enough to email me the first mission?!?!?!?!?!??!? I FEEL BETRAYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Mustang19]

In fact, I've just finished fixing up the mission. I'll mail it as soon as I get home. Don't sweat it, buddy. 

[Dark Hunter]

Well, for one thing, Vasudan Emperor Khonsu only just came to power in FS2. In FS1, Vasudan government was a Parliament (PVN = Parlimentary Vasudan Navy). Khonsu staged some sort of (nonviolent, as I understand it)coup in the years after the Great War and dissolved the Parliament. The Vasudan monarchy Imperium has therefore been around for about thity years, not ten thousand.

The techroom gives further information, stating that they are a culture of artisans and scholars, viewing history not as a timeline but as a space inhabited by both living and dead. It also calls Vasudan culture ritualistic, having multiple rites of passage (such as The Conversation; a Terran flubbing the Conversation is believed to be a factor in starting the T-V War).


I don't understand why you think that humans would be very much different than they are right now, though. Why shouldn't there be a school system? Why shouldn't humans still be male and female? FS takes place 300 years in the future, not 3000. Why would humans be genetically enhanced at all, let alone enough to be unrecognizable? That doesn't make sense to me...

As for your ideas about campaigns... Of course humans are going to have different views on things. You say that Greek philosphy sounds too "utopian", but I say that expecting all humans to agree on the vast majority of viewpoints sounds way too utopian for my tastes. As for the Vasudans, Khonsu is generally reagarded as a brilliant leader that brought about the economic revolution the Vasudans underwent after the Great War. I can't see them rebelling against Khonsu.

[Mustang19]

The difference between years 2300 and 2000 isn't going to be like the difference between, say, 1700 and 2000. Technology is advancing incredibly fast compared to any other point in history, and by 2300 easily we will have all kinds of bioenhancement procedures, virtual reality systems, nanotechnology, and so on- humans will not have anything similar to 21st century hairstyles, clothing, culture, or physical appereance unless they insist on not using all the biotech available to them and staying very traditional- which is entirely possible, and it would say a lot about human culture in Freespace. Take for example the famous tvfight.avi- wouldn't a 24th century human be a lot stronger than that? And if he chose to not use genetic strength enhancements, wouldn' t it be for cultural reasons, as in genetic enhancement being considered immoral or "unfair" in the 24th century?

What bugs me most is that the Terrans still have a 21st-century style buearucracy. You see references to courts, judicial systems, complex laws, and senates, when in the 24th century it would be easier to have all these judicial and legislative functions handled by computer or by popular vote. So, are these bureaucratic functions (law & order and political administration) handled in an inefficient 20th-century way (a definition of universal justice is created by setting up a complicated legal system) or are they handled by computer or popular vote? Shouldn't Terrans have a virtual democracy by 2300?

As for the Vasudans, I think you're right. I overstated myself. They have a parliament, which implies they have some democratic tradition, but there is still room for dissension for the same reasons that Terrans can hate each other. Have the Vasudans held together under one government so long because they are particularly nationalistic or peaceful? What about the HoL?

[brandx0]

Mustang, I think YOU'RE the one taking the utopian view here.  Perhaps people are very resistant to change?  Maybe Bioengineering became widely available and the religious sects of the world took a moral stance against it, a widebacklash came about and it was made illegal before it got a chance to show what it could really do for good?  Maybe a distrust of computers came about after some sort of worldwide virus that caused an economic dark age which could explain why we still use human pilots for fighter craft, despite the fact that computers could do it much much better.  Perhaps laws, senates, and bureaucracies still exist for the same reason they've existed for thousands of years, tradition? A need to feel led?  Public apathy towards their own government (Just look at the number of people who actually vote.  If EVERY major decision required a vote I think that ratio could perhaps lessen creating its own de-facto autocracy of those who decided to vote and managed to pass a law on their own without public consent.)

You're underestimating the failure of mankind to adopt new ideas.  Just because a better system is available, does not mean it will take hold.

[Flipside]

Man tends to form pyramidical command structures, call them Chief, Pharoah, King, God or anything else, there is an inbuilt human need to be part of a hierarchy. I don't see that being bred out of human nature for a long time for one very good reason. The people at the top of the hierarchy are the ones who have the last word.

The impression I get of the GTVA is a pretty totalitarian militaristic one. I suspect that there is a democratic or other system in place in civilian environments, but I don't see the military command structure altering much regardless of technologies.

[Mustang19]

Thanks for the insights, guys. Keep talking. It seems that the consensus is that the Terrans "hold themselves back" because of traditionalism that prevents them from adopting new technology- a simple excuse for Volition's copy-and-paste of contemporary culture onto the future. This also happens to work with my campaign concept, that of a small group of Terrans breaking with this traditionalism and either rebelling to form their own enclave or even trying to tear down the current government.

I always assumed that there was a Star Wars-style Senate (like the Republic Senate) running the GTVA. I vaguely remember some canon references to this, but can't recall them. Most user campaigns, like DoP, assume that there's a senate. Can anyone point to a canon reference about a GTVA civil government?

And also, what do you think :V: means when they say the Terrans based their principles on Greek thought?

[brandx0]

I think the closest :V: got to thinking about the Terran government was naming a few ships after greek dieties=P

[Flipside]

I suppose the best comparison to the role played by the GTVA is the role played by Galactica in BSG. It is host to a democratic process, but is also the only lifeline for many systems, as well as their only defence. So whilst there may be a Senate or something for deciding policies and/or civilian issues, the military will have a more or less self-governing role.

[Agent_Koopa]

The difference between years 2300 and 2000 isn't going to be like the difference between, say, 1700 and 2000. Technology is advancing incredibly fast compared to any other point in history, and by 2300 easily we will have all kinds of bioenhancement procedures, virtual reality systems, nanotechnology, and so on- humans will not have anything similar to 21st century hairstyles, clothing, culture, or physical appereance unless they insist on not using all the biotech available to them and staying very traditional- which is entirely possible, and it would say a lot about human culture in Freespace. Take for example the famous tvfight.avi- wouldn't a 24th century human be a lot stronger than that? And if he chose to not use genetic strength enhancements, wouldn' t it be for cultural reasons, as in genetic enhancement being considered immoral or "unfair" in the 24th century?

What bugs me most is that the Terrans still have a 21st-century style buearucracy. You see references to courts, judicial systems, complex laws, and senates, when in the 24th century it would be easier to have all these judicial and legislative functions handled by computer or by popular vote. So, are these bureaucratic functions (law & order and political administration) handled in an inefficient 20th-century way (a definition of universal justice is created by setting up a complicated legal system) or are they handled by computer or popular vote? Shouldn't Terrans have a virtual democracy by 2300?

As for the Vasudans, I think you're right. I overstated myself. They have a parliament, which implies they have some democratic tradition, but there is still room for dissension for the same reasons that Terrans can hate each other. Have the Vasudans held together under one government so long because they are particularly nationalistic or peaceful? What about the HoL?

Okay, I think you're over-enamoured with democracy. Why would computers take over the justice system when it's being done fine right now? You would need an incredibly sophisticated computer! Artificial intelligence! A sentient machine! Popular vote? I'm imagining millions of people all over the world, sitting on their couches with a can of beer in their hand, and tuning in to CourtTV, deciding to vote for the death penalty this week, because it's getting so boring with all these acquittals. 

And you want a computer to run the government? You want a computer making laws? Making decisions? Would any sane person go to war because Windows Panorama told them to?

Also, we haven't seen any clothing other than military uniform and flightsuits. Uniform is not designed to be flashy, and flightsuits are only necessity. But what makes you think that in the 2300s, people's chosen hairstyles will be floating three inches above their heads, or that genetic engineering will make everybody look like a Picasso painting, or that people will dress like in the Jetsons?

Thanks for the insights, guys. Keep talking. It seems that the consensus is that the Terrans "hold themselves back" because of traditionalism that prevents them from adopting new technology- a simple excuse for Volition's copy-and-paste of contemporary culture onto the future. This also happens to work with my campaign concept, that of a small group of Terrans breaking with this traditionalism and either rebelling to form their own enclave or even trying to tear down the current government.

I always assumed that there was a Star Wars-style Senate (like the Republic Senate) running the GTVA. I vaguely remember some canon references to this, but can't recall them. Most user campaigns, like DoP, assume that there's a senate. Can anyone point to a canon reference about a GTVA civil government?

And also, what do you think :V: means when they say the Terrans based their principles on Greek thought?

Maybe you're thinking of the GTVA Security Council. The Republic Senate is also a "copy-and-paste" of contemporary culture; it's only to be expected that the systems of the Republic each have a representative and be headed by one person.

[Dark Hunter]

Can anyone point to a canon reference about a GTVA civil government?

Quote from FS2 techroom:

BETAC dismantled the governments of the Terran blocs and recognized the General Assembly, the Security Council, and the Vasudan Imperium as the supreme authorities of Terran-Vasudan space.

I don't know about you, but the GTVA General Assembly sounds very much like a Senate to me, even if it isn't called a "senate".

[brandx0]

Sounds a bit more like the UN General Assembly to me

[TrashMan]

The difference between years 2300 and 2000 isn't going to be like the difference between, say, 1700 and 2000. Technology is advancing incredibly fast compared to any other point in history, and by 2300 easily we will have all kinds of bioenhancement procedures, virtual reality systems, nanotechnology, and so on- humans will not have anything similar to 21st century hairstyles, clothing, culture, or physical appereance

LOL... You do realise fashion is circular? Old things become popular again - besides, there is only so much different hair/clothing styles, you can't innovate forever

[NGTM-1R]

Well, for one thing, Vasudan Emperor Khonsu only just came to power in FS2. In FS1, Vasudan government was a Parliament (PVN = Parlimentary Vasudan Navy). Khonsu staged some sort of (nonviolent, as I understand it)coup in the years after the Great War and dissolved the Parliament. The Vasudan monarchy Imperium has therefore been around for about thity years, not ten thousand.

The Vasudan Imperium has existed for much longer then that.

Consider the Vasudan government was consistantly referred to as the "PVE" or Parlimentary Vasudan Empire.

[Agent_Koopa]

I don't know about you, but the GTVA General Assembly sounds very much like a Senate to me, even if it isn't called a "senate".

Riiiight, the General Assembly. I totally forgot about that.

[miskat]

Wow... what's this about people wanting to alter their genetics so as to be completely unrecognizable?

OK, lets assume that this is possible at all.  First things to happen: people choose what gender they want their children to be.  Second: they set hair color, eye color, modify the metabolic rate for a leaner race, etc.  BEAUTY enhancements!  We would all be recognizable as humans (or at least 99.999% human... maybe pointy ears from the fantasy freaks, but hell) because nobody would want to be so grossly different as to be discarded as ugly or as inhuman by the rest of society.

And, sure, hairstyles and clothes change, but fashions tend to come and go.  Who sais that 21st century fasion isn't having a comeback? 

But realistically, there are so many moral and ethical problems with such alterations that I don't see it EVER becoming popular.

And the technologal changed WERE massive anyway... hyperspace travel?  How is that NOT massive?  Railguns?  Blob turrets?  Freakin' LASER BEAMS!?  I mean, we're working on it, sure... but they are a long long  way off from common use.  I mean... beam cannon!

As for system of government?  Not going to change.  Ever.  I don't remember what greek philosopher it was who talked about it, but there are only about 9 different typed of governement that can exist, everything else is just a variation on a theme.  This includes aliens who are not of a hive-mind.

[aldo_14]

Wow... what's this about people wanting to alter their genetics so as to be completely unrecognizable?

OK, lets assume that this is possible at all.  First things to happen: people choose what gender they want their children to be.  Second: they set hair color, eye color, modify the metabolic rate for a leaner race, etc.  BEAUTY enhancements!  We would all be recognizable as humans (or at least 99.999% human... maybe pointy ears from the fantasy freaks, but hell) because nobody would want to be so grossly different as to be discarded as ugly or as inhuman by the rest of society.

Goths?

_{Sorry, couldn't resist}

[jr2]

And the technologal changed WERE massive anyway... hyperspace travel?  How is that NOT massive?  Railguns?  Blob turrets?  Freakin' LASER BEAMS!?  I mean, we're working on it, sure... but they are a long long  way off from common use.  I mean... beam cannon!

Aside from hyperspace travel, you missed the most impressive feat, even if we did copy it.  (If we copied it, we could have eventually found out about & built it ourselves, given enough time.)
SHIELDSsss, my Precious, Gollum!!!

[Grizzly]

Khonshu... the names are transelated, Commmand named the Vesudan ships after egyptians before they made contact with them, and still contineus to do so (Vesudans allowed this).. the vesudan emperor is not named Khonshu the second, but more something like: zodgroghgros graar. but because we can not pronounce that, we named him khonshu.